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Author | Topic: Discussing the evidence that support creationism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
aristarchus Member (Idle past 337 days) Posts: 31 Joined: |
The part that creationists never mention is that dark matter is needed for the galaxies to be spinning as fast as they are. So while proposing a 10,000 year old universe might explain why galaxies haven't drifted apart, it does nothing to explain the speed at which the outer arms are moving. Dark matter explains both.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
However, I am saying that it's foolish to say that life could only exist on earth. Since no one here has said that, it is a non-issue. What can be said is that the only sample of life we have available to study is here on earth and guess what, it happens to be carbon based.
Carbon-based life can only exist on earth, but not all life has to be carbon-based. Sorry, but say what? Why can carbon-based life exist only here on earth? And you still need to supply support for Creationism. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Aquilegia753 Member (Idle past 5930 days) Posts: 113 Joined: |
By my previous efforts to state possibly old (and now unreliable) data, I'm currently researching something. Hold on...
"[An] important lesson we learn from the way that pure numbers like define the world is what it really means for worlds to be different. The pure number we call the fine structure constant and denote by is a combination of the electron charge, e, the speed of light, c, and Planck's constant, h. At first we might be tempted to think that a world in which the speed of light was slower would be a different world. But this would be a mistake. If c, h, and e were all changed so that the values they have in metric (or any other) units were different when we looked them up in our tables of physical constants, but the value of remained the same, this new world would be observationally indistinguishable from our world. The only thing that counts in the definition of worlds are the values of the dimensionless constants of Nature. If all masses were doubled in value you cannot tell because all the pure numbers defined by the ratios of any pair of masses are unchanged."--John Barrow If the speed of light has been decelerating, like Joo Magueijo and John Moffat seem to think it has, then the stars and galaxies more than 10,000 light years (modern light years) may have started at the same time. '14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights”the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning”the fourth day.'--Genesis 1:14-19 The Bible says that on the fourth day, the stars were visible. However. If this was the fourth day after the creation of the universe, then the light must have traveled very fast for the four-day-old stars to reach earth. Therefore, the speed of light was much much greater than today, for the closest star's light takes over four years to reach earth, not four days. So, the most distant stars and galaxies may only be 10,000 years old. Therefore, still giving them not enough time to decay.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Let me also step in with one thing you should know.
You appear to be a Christian. Please understand this is not an issue of Christianity vs atheistic ideas. Almost all Christian sects accept the old universe, the Theory of Evolution and reject Biblical Creationism as the joke it is. As stated by the Clergy Project Letter, currently signed and endorsed by over 11,000 US Christian Clergy:
We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Consider this
Distance to SN1987A Reference 1: The Distance to Supernova 1987a by Don Lindsay, Last modified: 25 June 2006, accessed 24JUN07:
quote: A light-year is a measure of distance, specifically the distance light would travel in one earth year at the current speed of light. This is about 5.88 trillion mi. (9.46 trillion km) , so 168,000 light-years would be about 988,000 trillion (1012) miles or ~9.88 x 1017 miles. How do we know this distance is not affected by a change in the speed of light? Reference 2: Dave Matson: Young Earth: Additional Topics: Supernova, A6. The Distance to Supernova SN1987A and the Speed of Light, Last updated: Wednesday, 30-Nov-2005 17:06:12 CST, accessed 24JUN07
quote: Reference 3: SN1987A and The Antiquity of the Universe, by Todd S. Greene, originally written 3/16/2000, last revised 9/14/2000, accessed 24JUN07.
quote: Note that this is independent of the speed of light, thus it cannot - alone - confirm the speed of light at the time of the nova, but it does confirm the stellar distance involved. The next question is whether we can confirm that the speed of light was relatively constant during the time it took the light to travel from SN1987A to earth. The Speed of Light Back to ref 2:
quote: Such time discrepancy has not been observed in any pulsar. Thus by two different methods we confirm the speed of light is constant within our ability to measure it for the time period covered by the travel of light from SN1987A to earth. This of course ALSO means that the minimum age of the universe was 168,000 years (+/- 3%) in 1987 (when the nova was observed) ... AND it confirms the age of the light coming from the nova is ~168,000 years, so that any observed phenomena that occurred during that nova would have occurred 168,000 years ago. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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Aquilegia753 Member (Idle past 5930 days) Posts: 113 Joined: |
I never denied the 'old universe' theory. I actually strongly believe that God made all things mature. In doing that, he could have created a 'mature' universe. The rocks could appear to be billions of years old, but really be much younger. Adam could've appeared to have been 30, when he was not a day old.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Is it time to set up a mentor session for Aquilegia753 wher (s)he can move slowly through all of these PRATTs with just one person?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion |
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Aquilegia753 writes:
As I suspected. This is a gross misunderstanding of astrophysics. Well, the force of the galaxies spinning (at insanely fast speeds) along with the lack of neccesary mass to counter the effect with an equally strong gravitational pull towards the center means that the galaxies should be torn apart within 10,000 years. Because they are still intact and still spinning, either the galaxies must have more mass, and therefore more gravity (the theoretical 'Dark Matter'), or the universe and galaxies are less than 10,000 years old, and the galaxies haven't had time to decay. It's not just how fast the galaxies are spinning, it's the way they are spinning. Let's assume for a moment that the galaxies are less than 10,000 years old and that most of them are just empty space (meaning all the visible matter that we can observe are all the matter there is). We would be observing galaxies to behave more or less like a planetary star system with the inner planets having much less angular speeds than the outer planets. If this was the case with how the galaxies are behaving, you would have a point. But the galaxies are behaving more like solid objects than a planetary star system. The stars toward the outer edge have almost the same angular speeds than the stars toward the center. The only possible explanation for this behavior is if most of the matter that exist in the galaxies are nonvisible. We can certainly see their influence on the visible objects that we see, but we can't see what they are. Hence, we call them dark matter. And where did you get the 10,000 years from? I still haven't figured that out yet. Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Aquilegia753 writes:
In other words, god could have created the universe, the world, and all of us with all our memories of our childhoods last thursday? I never denied the 'old universe' theory. I actually strongly believe that God made all things mature. In doing that, he could have created a 'mature' universe. The rocks could appear to be billions of years old, but really be much younger. Adam could've appeared to have been 30, when he was not a day old. Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I never denied the 'old universe' theory. I actually strongly believe that God made all things mature. In doing that, he could have created a 'mature' universe. The rocks could appear to be billions of years old, but really be much younger. Adam could've appeared to have been 30, when he was not a day old. Only if God is a liar and a cheat, a trickster, Loki. If God created everything with the appearance of age, She could well have done it two seconds ago. What you propose is God the Liar, certainly a possibility, but something which can never be tested. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 764 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Aquilegia writes:
The Bible says that on the fourth day, the stars were visible. Moses allegedly wrote:
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights”the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning”the fourth day. Those don't sound the same to me.
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Aquilegia753 Member (Idle past 5930 days) Posts: 113 Joined: |
Yes, that would create a time distortion, but we already experiance a time distortion here on earth with something much slower: sound.
If a car is going at, say, a quarter of the speed of sound, away from you and it honks its horn twice, ten seconds apart. Then, the first honk, honk A, will be traveling backward, away from the rapidly receding car. Ten seconds later, the car emits honk B. However, in between, the car has traveled 2820 feet. Both honks are now traveling at the same speed toward you, but 14100 feet apart. therefore, even though Honk B was sent only ten seconds after Honk A, they would arrive 12.5 seconds apart. This simulation represents a time distortion. The sounds were made 10 seconds apart, but the stationary observer hears them 12.5 seconds apart. If the car were to, in between the honks, accelerate to half the speed of sound, then the honks would be farther apart. Were it to continue accelerating, but decrease the speed increase exponentially, eventually, you'd need a period of greater than ten seconds between honks to tell their time differances apart (i.e. 15.000000058949201 seconds and 15.000000058949210 seconds [totally random numbers].
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Aquilegia753 Member (Idle past 5930 days) Posts: 113 Joined: |
No. I'm sure that God didn't give Adam false childhood memories. But, I'm saying that God made everything mature. He didn't make the egg, for there was no chicken to tend to it. If He made a middle-aged man instantly, He could make a middle-aged earth
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Aquilegia753 Member (Idle past 5930 days) Posts: 113 Joined: |
I WILL NOT STAND FOR YOU TO CALL MY CREATOR A LIER!
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Aquilegia753 Member (Idle past 5930 days) Posts: 113 Joined: |
Even so if God created the stars on that day, then the speed of light would have to be even greater!
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