Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   To the creationists - the tough question
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 1 of 78 (1333)
12-27-2001 6:13 PM


What sort of evidence would you find convincing enough to sway you into believing that organic evolution was and is real?
Think the question over carefully, and try to be as concise as possible.
Moose
------------------
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Val, posted 12-31-2001 4:07 PM Minnemooseus has not replied
 Message 37 by Brad McFall, posted 02-04-2002 11:11 AM Minnemooseus has not replied
 Message 55 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-08-2002 8:05 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Val
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 78 (1407)
12-31-2001 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
12-27-2001 6:13 PM


Give me evidence there is no God

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-27-2001 6:13 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by TrueCreation, posted 12-31-2001 6:08 PM Val has not replied
 Message 6 by mark24, posted 01-01-2002 10:24 AM Val has not replied

TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 78 (1413)
12-31-2001 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Val
12-31-2001 4:07 PM


I can sorta see what Val is getting at. That is quite a vague question that is a hard question for creationists to answer without evolutionists saying what I know they will say. But simply what you do need is a without a doubt 'factual' scientific observation of something turning into something else. A new thing up even to the 'family' classification possibly.
------------------
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 12-31-2001]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Val, posted 12-31-2001 4:07 PM Val has not replied

RetroCrono
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 78 (1427)
01-01-2002 8:58 AM


I've also got a question for the creationist, why would God dissaprove evolution and why would evolution dissaprove God? It was only a few days ago I was stuck in this line of thought that they somehow object each other, however I was reading the second letter of Peter and the section on false teachers literally took my breath away. I didn't sleep for like two days, I've never read so much in my life, I just read and read, even though I'd pretty much read the Bible before, nothing had ever been this clear. I can't find where a lot of creationists get some of there arguments from. I personally feel they are misrepresenting the Bible.
e.g. the claim that animals couldn't be found in the fossil records before men, because there was no death before sin. Read "Romans 5:12", "Romans 4:13" and "I Corinthians 15:22". It is obvious to me that it is not referring to animals, otherwise it just sounds silly. There's other claims that I felt they've also falsified. I find it hard to believe the 6 days of creation as 6 man days and not 6 God days. I've heard all the creation arguments for why it must be taken literally but to me it makes no sense, it doesn't seem to work, unless you take it as 6 ages the Bible doesn't contradict itself. Put Job 15:1 together with Habakkuk 3:6 and I took it as that the hills/mountains were around long before men. But I think Ecclesiastes 1:10 says it better than you could possibly imagine.
Don't just take my word for it though and look up those few passages. Really study it and see for yourself. One thing to try though, is break down the 6 creation events as long ages and you'd be shocked to find how accurate it is with the supposed big bang and such.
I might be wrong, I still don't fully believe in the ToE, but some things from it seem very likely. No longer will I debate between the two as I kinda feel that they work with each other (more claim to the Bibles accuracy), so I'd rather call it discussing and questioning. It also helped me understand a few problems with evolution, like why the fossil record goes from simple to complex life forms, however today, there are many people that consider humans to be de-evolving, could the fall have something to with this? I'm just throwing ideas around here, but I can now know I can no longer take peoples mis-interpretations of the Bible and others, no-God approach to everything. I now know the Bible is the only real truth so that's what I'm sticking to. :-)

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by mark24, posted 01-01-2002 10:19 AM RetroCrono has not replied
 Message 28 by Fred Williams, posted 01-11-2002 12:04 PM RetroCrono has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5196 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 5 of 78 (1437)
01-01-2002 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by RetroCrono
01-01-2002 8:58 AM


quote:
Originally posted by RetroCrono:
I've also got a question for the creationist, why would God dissaprove evolution and why would evolution dissaprove God?
They aren't mutually exclusive. Only if you subscribe to a fundamentalist christian (probably any faith) ideal do they oppose. 6 day genesis, flood etc.
If there was an intelligent designer that created the universe, & created life with the ability to evolve so he/she/it could just leave it to its own devices, would that be any less true/likely than any faith in the world today? Most people who don't particularly subcribe to any religion, nor are they active atheists, believe something like this. "there must be something", kind of argument.
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by RetroCrono, posted 01-01-2002 8:58 AM RetroCrono has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5196 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 6 of 78 (1438)
01-01-2002 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Val
12-31-2001 4:07 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Val:
Give me evidence there is no God
That wasn't the question.
I could just as easily ask, give me evidence there is no God that created God.
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
[This message has been edited by mark24, 01-01-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Val, posted 12-31-2001 4:07 PM Val has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by TrueCreation, posted 01-03-2002 9:41 PM mark24 has not replied

Val
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 78 (1470)
01-02-2002 11:20 AM


Retro
There are many contradictions in the bible to how to evolutionary concepts.Adam and Eve is one for instance.They were not conceived from apes,in fact one was created from another.
Val

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by TrueCreation, posted 01-03-2002 9:45 PM Val has not replied
 Message 27 by nator, posted 01-08-2002 11:57 AM Val has not replied

Val
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 78 (1471)
01-02-2002 11:28 AM


Mark
Guess what,I agree with you that there was no God that created God.Do you feel that space has always existed and has no end or beginning? I do.I also feel the same about God.
Val

Val
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 78 (1472)
01-02-2002 11:33 AM


Mark
You said that was not the question.I am getting the feeling that this question in your mind had evolutionary boundries. I just cannot conceive that we got here by luck,and things changed by luck when everything is so balanced.

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by mark24, posted 01-02-2002 5:07 PM Val has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5196 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 10 of 78 (1485)
01-02-2002 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Val
01-02-2002 11:33 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Val:
Mark
You said that was not the question.I am getting the feeling that this question in your mind had evolutionary boundries. I just cannot conceive that we got here by luck,and things changed by luck when everything is so balanced.

The question was "What sort of evidence would you find convincing enough to sway you into believing that organic evolution was and is real?"
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Val, posted 01-02-2002 11:33 AM Val has not replied

Val
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 78 (1501)
01-03-2002 10:32 AM


Mark
I am sorry you do not seem to understand the concept of my answer,so I will explain it.If there is a God then oganic evolution is not present,if there is no God then your assumption of organic evolution is correct.I am asking you to disprove God then I will agree with your assumption.Hope this explains my answer.
Val

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Percy, posted 01-03-2002 11:07 AM Val has not replied
 Message 13 by mark24, posted 01-03-2002 11:09 AM Val has not replied
 Message 17 by TrueCreation, posted 01-03-2002 9:55 PM Val has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 12 of 78 (1503)
01-03-2002 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Val
01-03-2002 10:32 AM



Val writes:
If there is a God then organic evolution is not present, if there is no God then your assumption of organic evolution is correct.
God and evolution could both exist. And even if God doesn't exist, evolution could still be wrong. Are you trying to limit the choices in order to make a point? If so, it might help to provide some additional clarification.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Val, posted 01-03-2002 10:32 AM Val has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by TrueCreation, posted 01-03-2002 10:06 PM Percy has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5196 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 13 of 78 (1504)
01-03-2002 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Val
01-03-2002 10:32 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Val:
Mark
I am sorry you do not seem to understand the concept of my answer,so I will explain it.If there is a God then oganic evolution is not present,if there is no God then your assumption of organic evolution is correct.I am asking you to disprove God then I will agree with your assumption.Hope this explains my answer.
Val

He asked "What sort of evidence would you find convincing enough to sway you into believing that organic evolution was and is real?"
You have merely asked me/him to disprove something that you yourself don't know to exist.
I therefore ask, without reference to God, prove evolution never happened. A bit shitty, don't you think?
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Val, posted 01-03-2002 10:32 AM Val has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by TrueCreation, posted 01-03-2002 10:09 PM mark24 has replied

TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 78 (1533)
01-03-2002 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mark24
01-01-2002 10:24 AM


In both situations, your outside the realm of science. Conclusions on anything that we cannot observe, or test today always lean toward faith to some degree.
(if your looking for post #14 I just deleted it because it was a 'double' of post #15 from a clicking submit button and then hitting back button and submitting again)
-------------
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 01-03-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by mark24, posted 01-01-2002 10:24 AM mark24 has not replied

TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 78 (1534)
01-03-2002 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Val
01-02-2002 11:20 AM


I think I would disagree on to your saying therre are contredictions in the bible as to evolutionary concepts. Eve was created from Adams rib, while in a deep sleep, not while 'evolving'. And this concept did indeed require intelligence.
-------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Val, posted 01-02-2002 11:20 AM Val has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024