Super Evolution and the Flood

You have a point. I was being a little narrow minded thinking about God bringing the animals to the ark and closing the door, etc. Those things can't be explained naturally.

The error in your thinking is calling it magic. Spiritual mechanics are just as real and with working principles as physical mechanics, particularly in certain areas such as miracles, etc,....So it's not an appeal to a God of disorder and arbitrariness.

I think there are other areas of the Bible more subject to a natural inquiry such as historical events of kingdoms conquering, cities existing, etc,....

well-stated

No errors on my part. Magic is magic.Do enlighten us as to the laws of "spiritual mechanics", and how they apply to miraculous world wide floods.I could do with a good laugh.

Maybe next time when you ask with more civility and respect.

So yes, your argument is "Magic" and "Goddidit"Can you explain to me why we even bother since your argument revolves around completely unprovable assumptions that have absolutely no evidence whatsoever?Also, explain to me how your argument is nothing more then "I said so"Edited by obvious Child, : No reason given.

Not at all. The effects of the flood are some of the reasons why it is a fairy tale. Where did the water go? How did all of the heat get dispersed without killing virtually all life? How did plants grow in soil that has a large salt content? Why doesn't the fossil record conform to fluid mechanics?

Meaning that there aren't any, of course.

Those wishing to discuss a different YEC scenario than the one addressed by this thread should propose a new thread for that purpose over at [forum=-25].

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Randman,First, please, no replies to the message.Second, if you are experiencing problems then please post to Windsor castle and leave moderation issues to the moderators. As long as you continue ignoring these requests I will continue suspending you.Third, your return to EvC Forum came just after a significant change in moderation policy. Moderation is much more efficient and by the book now, and much less tolerant of consistent guideline violations. Do not expect a return to the way things were the last time you were here.Fourth, in almost every thread in which you participate you tend to go off topic, as you are doing here in this thread. If there's something you want to discuss for which there is no current thread then simply propose a new topic over at [forum=-25]. As far as this thread is concerned, if you would like to advocate for a different YEC view than the one we traditionally see and that this thread is attempting to address, you should not attempt to do that here. And especially if you'd like to argue that this thread misunderstands the traditional YEC view you should not attempt to do that here.Fifth, I'm suspending you for 48 hours.Again, please, no replies to this message.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Here's a quote from Genesis 11:

quote:

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20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.
21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

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Note that, in this chapter, insects are called "creeping things." I can't actually say that this is a translation of "remes," or whatever the Hebrew word was, but you should look into it. Furthermore, if, like you say, "creeping thing" can refer to reptiles, you'd better be damn sure that it does do that. Otherwise, you've got millions of insects to account for on the Ark.Note that the book quoted in AiG's article is almost fifty years old (in which time we've discovered at least one entirely new order, at least a quarter-million species, and I-don't-even-know-how-many genera). In case you couldn't guess, I'm an entomologist.Also note that God seems to believe in the above-quoted chapter of Leviticus that insects have four legs, when, in fact, they have six (no exceptions). Maybe He meant you have to tear off two legs before you could eat them, but the context doesn't support this idea. At the least, it proves that the Bible was imperfectly transmitted from God to man (i.e. humans changed it either by ignorance or malice). I think this proves pretty well that the Bible isn't infallible in scientific matters. By AiG's logic (not by mine, though), the Bible is therefore invalid in moral and ethical issues.Anyway, back to more on-topic issues: I would propose that some creation scientists learn AutoCAD or ProE and actually design (or even build) a replica of the Ark that can accomodate all the cages and stuff, with sloped floors, overhead baggage compartments, etc. They've given an "average cage size," but I'm pretty sure the stacking and organizing of cages will change the space requirements very dramatically when the sizes vary (especially with the elephant and brontosaur cages: elephants are not likely to take a too-small cage very well). Keep in mind that "volume" (as cited in AiG's article) is not the only factor. Any architect would know that.Also, what was Noah using ("gopher wood" is all I know) to build the Ark? Did he know how to purify iron or mix steel? If he didn't, he would have a hard time keeping the elephants and rhinos and buffalos (not to mention dinosaurs, if they were there) in their cages.Last note: AiG's article talks about bringing dinosaurs on the Ark. I was under the impression that dinosaurs were not on the Ark, and that that was why they are extinct now. A Mormon artist made a painting in which all the toy animals in a kid's room are boarding the kid's toy Ark, while the kid's dinosaur toys are standing around laughing and pointing their dinosaur-fingers at them.Edited by Bluejay, : Grammar

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There was a point to this [post], but it has temporarily escaped the chronicler's mind. -modified from Life, the Universe and Everything, Douglas Adams

A side note, I'm having trouble contemplating this apparently minor but also significant error in Genesis. Any bonehead could just pick up an ant or grasshopper or anything other creepy crawly thing and see that it has more than 4 legs. Even if you lump arachnids, insects, and all other arthropods into one "creeping kind", you'd still end up with stuff that have more than 4 legs. Who in the world would make an error like this?

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Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.

Well spotted, and very relevant to the topic of super-evolution after the flood. You're the expert. Could "micro-evolution" have added an extra pair of legs to all species of insect in 4,000 years, and isn't the fact that they all have six now, without exception, the most remarkable piece of convergent evolution? Wasn't Noah instructed to put pairs of all land animals on the ark? I think that's the reason that AiG have to face the prospect of adding dinosaurs (and everything else in the fossil record) to the menagerie.

Hi Bluejay, I noticed this and thought it was neat. It was something I had never thought about so I gave it a quick whirl. I don't know what anyone else has ever said about the volume of the ark as I have not been interested.First there would be no cages. Noah did not gather the animals they came to the loading dock.Now as to the actual floor space. With 10' ceilings I can get 5 acres of floorspace in the ark.Since God supplied the animals He controled their size and I assume they brought their own supplies, or God supplied them as Noah was not instructed to obtain them.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."