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Author Topic:   Super Evolution and the Flood
willietdog
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 173 (457846)
02-25-2008 7:42 PM


Super Evolution is the theory that after the "Great Flood" the animals in the ark undergoed a rapid evolution thus creating the variety of species we see today. This theory was created by YEC's in order to fight the mathematical impossibility that Noah put 2 of every species on the ark (there simply could not have been enough space).
By my calculations, the theory of Super Evolution presumes that 1 new species emerges every 20 hours. this is not including extinctions since then. Conservative estimates can say 1 every 1.6 days but I couldn't get any more than 1.2 no matter how hard I tried. Now, if you say all this happen directly after the flood and gradually slowed to explain why this rate isn't still happening you get speeds around 10x that, giving you about one speciation every 3 hours and 50 min. This is IMPOSSIBLE. evolution says (by my calculations) that a speciation occurs on average every 316.6 years (much more likely).
How can YEC's support these numbers. Directly after the flood the animals couldn't even BREED this fast. Some say God caused it like some sort of miracle but I can't see how this is in any way possible no matter what. On top of that, why do Creationist fight evolution if their own "Great Flood" story supports it 100%. Without evolution plus the flood we would only have a boat-load of species on earth.
Edited by willietdog, : No reason given.
Edited by willietdog, : No reason given.

I Am A: "Christian Evolutionist"

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Message 2 of 173 (457852)
02-25-2008 8:24 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
randman 
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Message 3 of 173 (457868)
02-26-2008 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by willietdog
02-25-2008 7:42 PM


This theory was created by YEC's in order to fight the mathematical impossibility that Noah put 2 of every species on the ark (there simply could not have been enough space).
Just a point of clarification: YECers do not state that Noah put 2 of every species. That's a bogus claim.
Take canines. All canines can interbreed, right? So from a YEC perspective, though they may all be called species by modern man, they would all be the same kind and are the same kind from a creationist perspective.

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Replies to this message:
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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 4 of 173 (457869)
02-26-2008 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by willietdog
02-25-2008 7:42 PM


Additionally, there are creationists (some with notable scientific backgrounds, accomplishments and degrees) that believe the Hebrew supports a regional flood instead of a global one and that advocate an old earth. So it would be more accurate to discuss what most YECers believe, not creationists per se.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 5 of 173 (457883)
02-26-2008 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by randman
02-26-2008 12:21 AM


Please see message 17 for a modified list.
randman writes:
Just a point of clarification: YECers do not state that Noah put 2 of every species. That's a bogus claim.
Ok, let's just forget this idea of species. Let's name as many animal that could not possibly interbreed with each other as we can. See if we can name all the "kinds" out there.
Let's start with mammals:
-Kankaroo
-Dog
-Lion
-Tiger
-Hippo
-Elephant
-Possum
-Rat
-Mouse
-Racoon
-Tazmanian Devil
-Golden monkey
-Chimpanzee
-Baboon
-Orangatan
-Horse
-Gorrilla
-Squirrel
-Whale
-Dolphin
-Fox
-Hyena
-Canine
-Bear
-Rhino
-Cheetah
-Leopard
-Walrus
-Seal
-Dugong
-Zebra
-Horse
-Tapir
-Guanaco
-Camel
-Peccary
-Pig
-Vicugna
-Deer
-Addax
-Mouflon
-Gaur
-Antelope
-Oryx
-Rabbit
-Elk
-Goat
-Sheep
-Fox
-Badger
-Wolverine
-Orca
-Bat
-Platypus
-Girrafe
-Armedillo
-Walrus
-Manatee
-Shrew
-Koala
-Anteater
-Cow
Those are just off the top of my head. Notice that I ignored all the species like black bears and polar bears. Just just said bear.
For now, let's stick with mammals. Can someone else help me add to this list before we move on to non-mammals like reptiles, birds, etc.?
Edited by Taz, : Added some more mammals as they came to me.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

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 Message 3 by randman, posted 02-26-2008 12:21 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by randman, posted 02-26-2008 3:01 AM Taz has replied
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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 6 of 173 (457884)
02-26-2008 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Taz
02-26-2008 2:58 AM


You really want a comprehensive list of all animals?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Taz, posted 02-26-2008 2:58 AM Taz has replied

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 7 of 173 (457885)
02-26-2008 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by randman
02-26-2008 3:01 AM


I want a comprehensive list of the "kinds" that creationists often bring up. Let's see if we can name as many animal as we can that cannot possibly interbreed with one another. Since creationists don't accept the idea of species, let's go with "kind".
For now, let's try to come up with the mammals first. We'll move onto other things like reptile, bird, insect, etc. later on. After this, we will get an idea of just how many animal Noah brought into his ark.
Added by edit.
People, please just ignore the fact that we have no definition of "kind". Let's just stick with the common sense idea of what kind is, which is the animal that cannot interbreed with other "kinds". For example, dog "kind" can't interbreed with cow "kind". We'll just lump all the bear species into one comprehensive bear "kind". The goal is to see if we can come close to the number of animal on Noah's ark.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

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 Message 6 by randman, posted 02-26-2008 3:01 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 8 of 173 (457886)
02-26-2008 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Taz
02-26-2008 3:04 AM


Good luck. That's quite an undertaking for your spare time.
But there are some YECers out there conducting science that might have a theoritical list. Also, I think many YECers define kinds as baramins and claim that some species that cannot interbreed successfully still came from the same kind. I suspect they would consider the donkey and horse in the same kind even though a mule cannot interbreed and produce offspring, and they probably put several whale genera into the same kind based on the fact some can interbreed, even though the rest cannot,....the thinking is they probably descend from one kind.
Cats like lions and tigers, which can interbreed, may be the same kind, but I would wager they not necessarily think only one cat kind was on the Ark, but maybe not.
Edit to add: for me, I accept Noah's Ark though not sure if it was a global or regional flood. However, since the story contains God's direct involvement, even closing the door to the Ark, I wouldn't necessarily assume things occurred via strictly natural mechanisms. There was a supernatural or different element involved. It may be that all the animals could fit on the Ark or for all we know, God made them all fit. It doesn't have to have a natural explanation.
Certainly when Jesus fed the 5000 with a few loaves of bread and fish, there wasn't enough food in the basket to contain the food, but it still happened (imho). God could put as many animals in the Ark as He wanted.
I've seen enough miracles and impossible things happen when dealing with God that trying to assume a "natural" explanation doesn't really hold much water with me. It could be, though, that reality is more elastic than we think. Quantum physics, imo, suggests the miraculous is possible from a natural or scientific perspective, just statistically unlikely, but interject God affecting the outcome, and then well, the miracle can happen.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Taz, posted 02-26-2008 3:04 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Taz, posted 02-26-2008 3:08 AM randman has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 173 (457887)
02-26-2008 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by randman
02-26-2008 3:06 AM


randman writes:
But there are some YECers out there conducting science that might have a theoritical list.
Well, let's have this theoretical list, then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by randman, posted 02-26-2008 3:06 AM randman has replied

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 Message 10 by randman, posted 02-26-2008 3:18 AM Taz has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 10 of 173 (457889)
02-26-2008 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taz
02-26-2008 3:08 AM


I didn't say I have a list. There are well-known YECers. The NYTs did a story on them. You might find a list there, for all I know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Taz, posted 02-26-2008 3:08 AM Taz has replied

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 Message 11 by Taz, posted 02-26-2008 3:23 AM randman has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 173 (457890)
02-26-2008 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by randman
02-26-2008 3:18 AM


Well, since you're a creationist, perhaps you would like to find this list and present it here?
I have a list of a million former creationists who are now satanists. If you provide your list, I will provide my list of these former christian creationists that are now baby eating satanists.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 12 of 173 (457891)
02-26-2008 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
02-26-2008 3:23 AM


A creationist?
Hmmm.....I am not a YEC.
Exactly what is a creationist?
Anyone that believes God created the universe?
Seems to me that is a good definition of a creationist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Taz, posted 02-26-2008 3:23 AM Taz has replied

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 13 of 173 (457893)
02-26-2008 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by randman
02-26-2008 3:25 AM


Hang on, so you don't believe that the world wide flood happened and that it was responsible for the geologic features we see today?
If indeed you don't believe in this, why are you in this thread? The OP clearly refers to YECs.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by iano, posted 02-26-2008 3:38 AM Taz has replied
 Message 171 by Beretta, posted 03-23-2008 5:40 AM Taz has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 14 of 173 (457894)
02-26-2008 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Taz
02-26-2008 3:27 AM


If indeed you don't believe in this, why are you in this thread? The OP clearly refers to YECs.
You a YEC Taz?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Taz, posted 02-26-2008 3:27 AM Taz has replied

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 15 of 173 (457895)
02-26-2008 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by iano
02-26-2008 3:38 AM


iano writes:
You a YEC Taz?
For the sake of argument, for now yes I'm a YEC.
That said, let's get back to our list of mammal "kinds".

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Replies to this message:
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