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Author Topic:   Mode of the Debate: Targeting Children
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 31 of 45 (414734)
08-05-2007 11:23 PM


Speaking as someone that was conned into believing in the magical world of christianity since my first memories til I was like 20, I think the only thing we can hope for is that these kids who are brainwashed will develop a sense of conscience which will help them reject the christian doctrine. You have to remember that the "science" these children are raised up to believe are bogus stuff. No amount of evidence will change their minds. I think it's the human spirit to do the right thing that will help them break free of the christian mentality.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by arachnophilia, posted 08-06-2007 12:23 AM Taz has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 32 of 45 (414747)
08-06-2007 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Doddy
08-05-2007 11:03 PM


Re: Propoganda
What are the chances of those children in that audience actually going to a real school at all, let alone one that teaches evolution.
not very good. the "supports bush" and "creationist" and "home school" crowds are all very closely associated, with a large degree of overlap.
my mother home schooled my younger brother a few years, for other reasons, and at her home schooling association, they were handing out "dinosaurs in the bible" and "re-elect bush" signs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Doddy, posted 08-05-2007 11:03 PM Doddy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Doddy, posted 08-08-2007 4:06 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 33 of 45 (414748)
08-06-2007 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Taz
08-05-2007 11:23 PM


I think the only thing we can hope for is that these kids who are brainwashed will develop a sense of conscience which will help them reject the christian doctrine.
well, if christians were actually... you know, christian, this might be harder. but hypocrisy in the church is probably the leading reason people end up rejecting christianity. "wait, in the bible jesus said this... why are we doing the opposite?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Taz, posted 08-05-2007 11:23 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Taz, posted 08-07-2007 4:22 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 34 of 45 (414781)
08-06-2007 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by macaroniandcheese
08-05-2007 8:25 PM


Re: Propoganda
most people who accept evolution probably accept it because of what some book/person/organisation told them.
Very true. But the point is that they do not have to accept it solely on that basis and that should be made clear.
Creationists would say 'believe that which is is in the bible'.
No scientist would say 'believe that which is in Origin of the Species' (for example)

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 35 of 45 (414999)
08-07-2007 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by arachnophilia
08-06-2007 12:23 AM


arach writes:
. "wait, in the bible jesus said this... why are we doing the opposite?"
For years, I tried to point out the "living words" as a way to get the christians to stop hating. The problem with this approach is Jesus never actually directly said anything about certain issues, like segregation, sexism, and gay marriage. To actually see anything in the bible, both NT and OT, we have to look to Letter to the Romans or Leviticus, which of course support a variety of bigotry and sexist attitudes. During times of slavery, christians used the bible as a mean to justify slavery. Then of course, during the segregation period the christians used the bible to justify the blatant racism that was going on. During women's rights movement, the christians was able to dig up stuff in the bible to oppose women's rights to vote and stuff. Nowadays, they are using the bible to oppose gay rights.
Sure, if we analyze the bible deep enough, we can interpret it to support the basic human rights that we are fighting for and have been fighting for for decades. Purpledawn and jar have certainly been able to do this. But let's be honest. Do we honestly expect the average christian joe to think this deeply about theology? Remember that people's natural reaction to those who are different than them is hate. High school kids, myself included, stigmatized and even beat up gay kids in school. We then attended sunday sermons and our hate was reinforced by people like riverrat, buzsaw, and NJ. Do you honestly think that using Purpledawn's or jar's approach will change any of that?
The simple truth is most children have underdeveloped conscience. Some grow out of it and some remain unempathetic to other people's sufferings. Regardless of what the bible says, whether it supports or denounces hate, one can certainly use it to support just about anything. And therein lies the danger. I would put my money on a good atheist's moral conscience over any christian's anyday. At least the atheist is doing right because he knows it's the right thing to do rather than hope of heavenly bliss or fear of eternal damnation.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by arachnophilia, posted 08-06-2007 12:23 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by arachnophilia, posted 08-07-2007 5:36 PM Taz has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 36 of 45 (415010)
08-07-2007 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taz
08-07-2007 4:22 PM


For years, I tried to point out the "living words" as a way to get the christians to stop hating. The problem with this approach is Jesus never actually directly said anything about certain issues, like segregation, sexism, and gay marriage. To actually see anything in the bible, both NT and OT, we have to look to Letter to the Romans or Leviticus, which of course support a variety of bigotry and sexist attitudes. During times of slavery, christians used the bible as a mean to justify slavery. Then of course, during the segregation period the christians used the bible to justify the blatant racism that was going on. During women's rights movement, the christians was able to dig up stuff in the bible to oppose women's rights to vote and stuff. Nowadays, they are using the bible to oppose gay rights.
well, yes. and they're right, too. the bible is a quite hateful text in places, when it comes down to it. but the stuff is far more basic than that.
"judge not" and "love your neighbor." i watched my church tear itself apart from the inside. had nothing to do with hating outsiders or scapegoating homosexuals -- they could barely get along with each other.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Taz, posted 08-07-2007 4:22 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Taz, posted 08-08-2007 12:57 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 37 of 45 (415063)
08-08-2007 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by arachnophilia
08-07-2007 5:36 PM


spiderboy writes:
well, yes. and they're right, too. the bible is a quite hateful text in places, when it comes down to it. but the stuff is far more basic than that.
This is exactly why I abandoned the bible and god all together. The christians who hate chose the hateful texts to support their hate. The christians who love chose the loveful texts to support their love. Both are essentially just cherry picking their way through. How in the world does this demonstrate any sense of absolute morality? How in the world can you actually demonstrate that your version is the right one?

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by arachnophilia, posted 08-07-2007 5:36 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by arachnophilia, posted 08-08-2007 4:10 AM Taz has not replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 38 of 45 (415087)
08-08-2007 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by arachnophilia
08-06-2007 12:21 AM


Re: Propoganda
arachnophilia writes:
the "supports bush" and "creationist" and "home school" crowds are all very closely associated
Then seeing as education is out of the picture as a solution, what do you do? I mean, these kids will grow up as adults with the opinion that if evolution is true, we are monkeys and God is a liar. They will associate it with homosexuality, communism, genocide and racism. They won't listen to any reason or view any evidence without Ken Ham's 'Bible glasses'. It will be near impossible for them to see the light.
And, they'll vote.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 08-06-2007 12:21 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by arachnophilia, posted 08-08-2007 4:11 AM Doddy has not replied
 Message 41 by Taz, posted 08-08-2007 9:20 PM Doddy has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 39 of 45 (415088)
08-08-2007 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Taz
08-08-2007 12:57 AM


This is exactly why I abandoned the bible and god all together. The christians who hate chose the hateful texts to support their hate. The christians who love chose the loveful texts to support their love. Both are essentially just cherry picking their way through. How in the world does this demonstrate any sense of absolute morality? How in the world can you actually demonstrate that your version is the right one?
yeah, that's generally how the thought process goes. you're not alone in that logic -- i've heard it many times before.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Taz, posted 08-08-2007 12:57 AM Taz has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 40 of 45 (415089)
08-08-2007 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Doddy
08-08-2007 4:06 AM


Re: Propoganda
Then seeing as education is out of the picture as a solution, what do you do? I mean, these kids will grow up as adults with the opinion that if evolution is true, we are monkeys and God is a liar. They will associate it with homosexuality, communism, genocide and racism. They won't listen to any reason or view any evidence without Ken Ham's 'Bible glasses'. It will be near impossible for them to see the light.
And, they'll vote.
i'm sorry, i don't have an answer for you. perhaps your question was rhetorical, but all i can say is "i haven't the foggiest."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Doddy, posted 08-08-2007 4:06 AM Doddy has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 41 of 45 (415233)
08-08-2007 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Doddy
08-08-2007 4:06 AM


Re: Propoganda
Goddy writes:
And, they'll vote.
For years now, I've been telling people, especially around election months, that I fear for the life of our nation because the same people that can't locate where south korea is or iraq is on the map also go out and vote by the masses.
Also reminds me of a news I heard a couple years ago. Educators in Malaysia were worried because the latest national test results showed that over 40% of their high school students couldn't locate their own country on the map.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Doddy, posted 08-08-2007 4:06 AM Doddy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Doddy, posted 08-08-2007 10:38 PM Taz has replied

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 42 of 45 (415246)
08-08-2007 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Taz
08-08-2007 9:20 PM


Re: Propoganda
That's why I think, and I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, that before you can vote, you have to fill out a general knowledge test. Your vote should be scaled based upon how well you do on that test. Get 100%, and you get a vote of 1. Get 50%, and you get a vote of 0.5.
No point allowing people to vote for a government because they like their policy on Iraq if they don't even know where Iraq is. Likewise for voting on a government's climate change policy if you don't even know what a greenhouse gas is, or on an economic policy if you don't even know what inflation is. It's not fair on those of us who do know these things to have our informed opinion count just as much as those with an uninformed opinion.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Taz, posted 08-08-2007 9:20 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Taz, posted 08-09-2007 3:22 AM Doddy has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 43 of 45 (415275)
08-09-2007 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Doddy
08-08-2007 10:38 PM


Re: Propoganda
Well... here in the US they used to use tests like the one you described to prevent non-whites from voting. The tests would have rediculously hard questions that they knew no sane person could answer. They were able to target non-whites by the fact that the law allowed them to "randomly" pick out potential voters or to only apply the tests in certain counties.
I like your idea, however. We could make it mandatory for everyone to take the little general knowledge test.
Seriously, when I saw that man on tv being asked to locate north and south korea and he pointed to australia as north korea and new zealand as south korea, I almost gave up hope for our nation. They asked a woman what the vice president's name was and she went blank. I think they also asked these people if they vote and they said yes.
By the way, might as well ask you here... since you're from Australia. Has that godforsaken gay marriage ban that got passed a couple years ago in australia been struck down yet?
Added by edit.
In college, a french student wanted to make a point that us Americans didn't know jack about the world. He drew out by hand almost perfectly the map of the world with some general boundary lines. He then went around asking some students to locate certain countries. He didn't ask me because he already knew I knew my geography well. I was absolutely amazed at some fellow students. A girl pointed at Scandinavia when asked where France was, and that was after we told her where Europe was. Another student couldn't find New Zealand on the map. A lot of students struggled and missed Turkey. Amazingly enough, a lot of people couldn't locate Israel on a blank map. We're not even talking about obscure countries here. One student amazed me by asking "there was a vietnam war?" after being asked where the vietnam war took place. The question you have to ask yourself is have these people been living under a rock?
Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.
Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Doddy, posted 08-08-2007 10:38 PM Doddy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Nighttrain, posted 08-09-2007 5:11 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 45 by Doddy, posted 08-09-2007 8:51 AM Taz has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 44 of 45 (415279)
08-09-2007 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Taz
08-09-2007 3:22 AM


Re: Propoganda
Seriously, when I saw that man on tv being asked to locate north and south korea and he pointed to australia as north korea and new zealand as south korea, I almost gave up hope for our nation. They asked a woman what the vice president's name was and she went blank. I think they also asked these people if they vote and they said yes.
Dunno whether that`s an improvement or not, Taz. We used to be confused with Austria----------all that snow, you know. And yodelling. Lots of yodelling
Edited by Nighttrain, : upping the entertainment factor

This message is a reply to:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 45 of 45 (415290)
08-09-2007 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Taz
08-09-2007 3:22 AM


Re: Propoganda
Tazmanian Devil writes:
Has that godforsaken gay marriage ban that got passed a couple years ago in australia been struck down yet?
Nope, despite the UK changing their laws and the Australian Capital Territory moving to challenge the federal government, nothing has changed since 2004. Both gay marriage and civil unions are illegal here.

Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!
We seek contributors with a knowledge of Intelligent design to expand and review our page on this topic.
Registration not needed for editing most pages (the ID page is an exception), but you can register here!

This message is a reply to:
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