Probability of God

This will poabably die a quick death as some of my topics do.What is the probability of the existence of God? Is there a way in which we can put numerical values,even rough ballpark figures that allow for a guess,or is the idea worthless?

In what way do you mean probability? How can the concept even be applied to an entity such as god?My guess: p(god) = 0.

MJThat is my point.Is there a way in which we can show that probability can be used to establish odds for or adds against God.I am putting this in in order to counter the typical arguements for things such as fine-tuning and against abiogenesis. If creationists can parade endless trivia about the world in terms of probability then I think it is fair to say that this is a question that needs persuing.I am no mathematician but it is my understanding that if we can place actions governed by laws of physics and parameters on the likelihood of a universe supporting an infinite intelligence through the available material in the universe, then we should be able to offer at least a range of probability.Either way I think it will bring on board some interesting twists of logic on the part of creationists/IDer's.It is possible I am totally mad too!LOL
Let the games begin.

The probability of God is 100% for most of us who have had encounters with him and have been born of his spirit. To others, the probability is not likely to be static, that is it varies with individuals. In my 58 years as a Christian, born/baptized by his spirit I've become as convinced of the god Jehovah, as well as his son, spirit, and book that with me it's as 100% as it is that my wife exists.His reality is such to me that I have a reverential love/fear relationship with him as his child, much like that which an earthly child should have to his/her earthly father. My earthly father loved me and I loved him, but that doesn't mean I had no fear of disobedience to him. Same with God.

One thing that confuses me amongst evolutionists, is when you talk about the 'chance' of evolution happening that's fine, when you talk about mathematical probabilities it's definately NOT fine. So now you want the odds on God? - How could you figure the odds on this anyway? What about considering the existence/non-existence of supernatural tools God could own? - pretty tough to get a probability on this one I think.

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Either way I think it will bring on board some interesting twists of logic on the part of creationists/IDer's.

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It is possible I am totally mad too!LOL

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No, Sidelined, you're not mad atol. This's a topic worthy of some discussion, imo.

I just want to respond to a couple of questions here. To buzsaw,I understand that you have this emotional attachment with God and IMO that could occur whether he exists or not so obviously we cannot approach it on the basis of emotional content.Therefore your 100% is not valid in this discussion thiugh it may be in others. i also do not know if numbers can be placed to such things.The point is to see,if,during the presentation of arguements whether any insights can be shown.
To MTW The 'chance' of evolution you spoke of is a probability despite your protest.
"What about considering the existence/non-existence of supernatural tools God could own? - pretty tough to get a probability on this one I think." That is true,however,for the purposes of this discussion we may only enter in to the arena those items of God that are not a matter of speculation.Supernatural tools have no means of verification so they are not critical to the discussion.

One way to calculate this probability would be to count all the Gods we "know" of so far. (Allah, Thor,Zeus, Baal, etc) Let's say in human history this comes to 500 different Gods.Now, are these all so different from each other that they are mutually exclusive? Do they allow for multiple Gods to exist? To simplify things this time around say yes and no to those questions.Next, are there any ways of determining if anyone is more likely than any others? That is, do we have evidence for any one that is really different from any others? The answer seemt to be know.And now let's assume (just for the argument) that one of them does exist. They are all equiprobable so the chances of any one of them being right is 0.002.As you can see it is possible to come up with a range of such probabilities with this approach. I would say the range of p would vary from zero to a number under 0.001 when it was worked out more carefully.And then we can work on the number of angels on that pin head. ROFL

I'd say its almost worthless, although I would also say that it's possible to assign a 0% probability to definitions of God which are rigorous enough to be analyzed and shown inconsistent. For example, the probability that an omniscient and omnipotent God exists that does not want fetuses to be aborted is 0% since fetuses obviously are aborted and nothing happens contrary to the will of an omniscient and omnipotent being.In fact the two attributes of omniscience and omnipotence are basically inconsistent since a being that exhaustively knows everything about the universe including Itself and Its actions must thereby be limited in the exercise of its will. In other words, such a being is bound to do only that which it foreknows it will do, and cannot do otherwise lest it compromise its infallible knowledge.These are, of course, classical concepts, and revised definitions can marry the two attributes. For example, it may be that all probable universes are real and God can therefore commit and know all of His probable actions and is not limited to knowing only one actual act or sequence of acts. Along somewhat the same lines (perhaps the sidelines ), it might also be possible that the future is inherently unknowable even to God. Therefore God can know all that is knowable - namely everything that actualizes in the present moment within quantum uncertainty limits - but the future simply cannot be accurately known.That brings up another interesting thing to consider: Is knowledge of probabilities real knowledge? If I say it is X% probable that tomorrow I will do my laundry, what type of knowledge do I have? Is it knowledge at all? What if I don't know the exact probability, but I know that the probability of it happening is still real. Is that knowledge? Is it just a flight of fancy? If God knows that at a certain moment M He has a 50% probability of doing act A, a 20% probability of doing act B, a 10% probability of doing act C, etc... What type of knowledge is that? Since He doesn't know anything to be 100% probable, does He really know anything at all? What if the probabilities are relative? Perhaps ALL the probabilites actualize in some universe (like the Everett Interpretation of QM), and the probabilities that He will experience each universe are unique to Him as an individual.I dunno... just some stuff to think about.

Well I guess I will have to instigate some borders on how we are placing God in the setting of what we do know about the universe.Point one. We have heard it said over and over that God is powerful and is capable of feats that make us puny by comparison.And of course he is supposed to have created heaven earth sun moon stars firmament light.I will leave out the additional things pertainent to earth and ask if we can make sense of these 7 items.Can we debate the meaning of these things as it is necessary to advance my arguement further.Point two. Now I believe it is vital to establish the means by which he does the creating. I do not ask for personal opinion but rather scriptural explanation of how God accomplishes these things.Is there specific reference or is the idea of it being supernatural{whatever that means} a human invention?I will leave it at this for now and see what comes of it.

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To buzsaw,I understand that you have this emotional attachment with God and IMO that could occur whether he exists or not so obviously we cannot approach it on the basis of emotional content.Therefore your 100% is not valid in this discussion thiugh it may be in others.

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Hold on there, Sidelined. This includes some physical stuff like instant healing and material answers to prayer in such ways to be sure it was miracle. No, I can't prove these to you, but I know they happened to me.

.......Then of course, there's all those fulfilled prophecies which attest to the reality of the god Jehovah and his Bible. In comparison, the likelihood of evo is didly.------------------
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

buzsawYes that is the unfortunate nature of the way in which I am inquiring into the probability of god since I can only use things that allow me to put numbers into place.As real as these may seem to you the information they would present to me are not amenable to organizing an investigation of probabilities.I hope this is clear and does not seem like a brush off.

But Buz,that is a different thread
EvC Forum: Does prophecy support the BibleYou haven't posted there since basically claiming that anyone who can't understand the clear and self-explanatory prophesy in Revelations is blind.Clear and self-explanatory is not what I would call anything in Revelations.------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

"What are the probabilities of the existence of God?"Hmmm. Not being a mathametician, and assuming that Sidelined is asking for the chances that there is an omnipotent, omniscient, singular, non-gendered, noncorporal, inexplicable, Creator of the entire universe ... let's just say either there is or there isn't ... so my answer is "50/50."