Why debate?

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Originally posted by redstang281:
I think I speak for a lot of us here when I say I disagree with that. I have researched both sides in my own free time. I'm not sure a person can get through college, high school, junior high, or even grade school without learning about evolution. However, it is intirely possible for someone to go through life without studying the creationist side. I think it is absolutely safe to say there are more evolutionist that haven't heard the creationist side than their are creationist that haven't heard the evolutionist side.

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I wouldn't count that as a safe bet at all.An interest in evolution involves an active study of the surrounding
arguments ... including rebuttals by creationists.The largest proportion of creationists will be those raised to
fundamentally believe what their parents were taught to
believe about the creation.The image here is skewed strongly, because we are ALL educated individuals on this forum .. creationist and evolutionist alike. We have learned how to enquire beyond the surface of what is written.I have personally spoken to many, many creationists who know little
or nothing about evolution, but few evolutionists who know little
or nothign about creationism.Its a statistically insignificant sample, and anecdotal, but ...

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Originally posted by redstang281:
Evolutionist, why do you enjoy debating creationists?

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I like to debate in general, and I have become a more disciplined, logical thinker because of my debating practice. I also think that this particular debate is very important, because of the political power Christian Fundamentalists have in our government, and therefore schools.Americans learn virtually nothing about evolutionary theory in public schools and it is because of the power of the Radical Right.I do not ever hope or presume to "convert" anyone. The most I hope for is to possibly help some creationists be a bit less confident that they are right (and that the ToE is wrong).Since Creationism begins with the assumption of Biblical correctness, I am not so sure I will ever succeed in this persuit, but I am also aware that there may be lurkers who do not post, and/or people "fence-sitting". It is also my hope that these people might be less entrenched in religious arrogance, less logic-impaired, and less threatened to think of the Bible in a non-literal way, and therefore might still be able to use some critical thinking skills and logic.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b] Are you under the impression that any creationist position is based on lack of knowledge?

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[/QUOTE]By definition, yes, when it comes to the subject of the theory of evolution.

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Originally posted by redstang281:
I think I speak for a lot of us here when I say I disagree with that. I have researched both sides in my own free time. I'm not sure a person can get through college, high school, junior high, or even grade school without learning about evolution. However, it is intirely possible for someone to go through life without studying the creationist side. I think it is absolutely safe to say there are more evolutionist that haven't heard the creationist side than their are creationist that haven't heard the evolutionist side.

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I think you confuse reading the popular cartoon idea of what evolution is with actually studying the subject. I agree that virtually everone has done the former; very few (and no creationist I have ever encountered) have done the latter.

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Originally posted by redstang281:
I think it is absolutely safe to say there are more evolutionist that haven't heard the creationist side than their are creationist that haven't heard the evolutionist side.

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I don't think that this is a safe thing to say in the least.Most evolutionists I have come into contact with are well-read in Creationist literature. I, myself, own quite a few books by Creationists, and have read a lot from the major Creationist web sites.It is the nature of scientific (critical) thinking that one learn about and understand opposing viewpoints, otherwise you are not in any position to debate them. Learning about Creation "science" is no different.I am willing to bet that any given Evolutionist here has read more Creationist work that the given Creationist here.It already stands to reason that the average Evolutionist understands and has read more scientific work than the average Creationist.I mean, after all, why read about the ToE to try to fully understand it when you have already decided that it is false and your particular interpretation of a chapter in a particular version of a particular ancient book is true, no matter what, right?Also, reading/listening to anything which might shake up or challenge your world view is often frowned upon in Fundamentalist circles. Nobody is standing on the pulpit in a Fundie church, encouraging the congregation to go out and read Gould and Dawkins, you know? The faithful are encouraged to remain ignorant, lest their faith be challenged.It's sad that a religion has to resort to keeping their followers uneducated and fearful of using their (God-given?) critical thinking abilities.The American public is woefully undereducated in the sciences, and we are a very Christian nation. This combination alone would tend to counter your above contention, as well.------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

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[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-12-2002]

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Originally posted by Peter:
Creationist, why do you enjoy debating evolutionists?

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i dunno debating morons like toff is pretty fun most of the people here are nice and try to explain things for you, thanks.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

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Originally posted by toff:
And if you DID say it about evolutionists, your comment would be nonsensical, since evolutionists are familiar with creationism, its arguments, and its propositions. Creationists are not familiar with evolution. They invariably know virtually nothing about it.

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im sure you know very little as well, its not even a theory yet. it keeps changing everytime the wind blows and something proves a part of it wrong. so evolution is only an idea as of now. also would you please stop insulting creationists, your draggin us all down man. it is however funny to read your completely generalized discrimations of everything from creationists to evolutionists and from atheists to the most faithful. if your gonna come from a scientifical standpoint use only evidence no guesses, assumptions, rationalizations, or ideas. your are welcome to say them as opinions just say them for what they are.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KingPenguin:
[B] im sure you know very little as well, its not even a theory yet. it keeps changing everytime the wind blows and something proves a part of it wrong. so evolution is only an idea as of now. [/QUOTE]Evolution is one of the best-supported theories in all of science, and the evidence in favor of it fills thousands and thousands of books and journals. Remember, the evidence has been accumulating for well over 150 years now.The fact that scientific theories change in the light of new evidence is a strength, not a weakness, as you seem to characterize it.Please, please read this short essay describing what scientific theories are, and what they aren't. Please read it, and surprise me. http://www.skepdic.com/science.htmlYour mischaracterisations of science astonish and dismay me. If you are 16 and know so little about how science is actually done, I fear for our future.------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
Evolution is one of the best-supported theories in all of science, and the evidence in favor of it fills thousands and thousands of books and journals. Remember, the evidence has been accumulating for well over 150 years now.

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The fact that scientific theories change in the light of new evidence is a strength, not a weakness, as you seem to characterize it.

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Please, please read this short essay describing what scientific theories are, and what they aren't. Please read it, and surprise me.

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http://www.skepdic.com/science.html

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Your mischaracterisations of science astonish and dismay me. If you are 16 and know so little about how science is actually done, I fear for our future.

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this is why i hate schools, they always teach you things wrong. i just realized what i said was incorrect a while ago. also toff has been confusing me since he keeps saying that evolution is a fact, but thats okay. also the only part of science i care about are the ones that effect faith in christ and the human soul, which i will never understand why atheists dont want either. im not talking about just believing in christ either, im talking total faith and trust in him; its the only way he can save you from an eternity in hell. also schrafinator i fear for your future because you dont have faith in christ and are as ignorant to christ as i am to science. i know my understanding of science is rudimentary at best but thats mainly because im not devoted to it and that its hard to debate what your saying if all of you evolutionist keep ragging on the creationists for not knowing every scientific theory and you fail to try and understand what were saying. i think that no matter what neither side can stop debating just because we feel strongly about what were talking about and if you dont have a passion for what your doing and what you do and dont have faith in, then you should reconsider your place in life and in christ's eyes.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

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[This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 02-13-2002]

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
i dunno debating morons like toff is pretty fun most of the people here are nice and try to explain things for you, thanks.

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I do believe that here we have a clear cut case of pot calling the kettle black...

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
im sure you know very little as well, its not even a theory yet. it keeps changing everytime the wind blows and something proves a part of it wrong. so evolution is only an idea as of now. also would you please stop insulting creationists, your draggin us all down man. it is however funny to read your completely generalized discrimations of everything from creationists to evolutionists and from atheists to the most faithful. if your gonna come from a scientifical standpoint use only evidence no guesses, assumptions, rationalizations, or ideas. your are welcome to say them as opinions just say them for what they are.

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So then you are suggesting that the theory of evolution has done nothing but get erroded since its inception? Thats no discoveries,like the one made this week for instance about the macroevolution of small crustaceans into flies are not reinforcing this very sound and very mathematicaly probably theory? Well,then,everybody is right...you really dont know a thing about it,do you? The theory has remained the same for the last 150 years...what changes is our understanting of its mechanics and as i said,while there are discoveries that exposes some problems with it every now and again,other discoveries come to reinforce it. But essentially,its still basicaly evolution of simpler life forms into more complex life forms through a process of mutation and natural selection. When was it ever anything else?

There is no shame in not knowing about science, Penguin.The shame is in forming a strong opinion about an entire field of study, and making direct claims about these fields of study, without knowing anything about them.This just means that you are talking smack, and that is a shameful, ignorant way for anyone to act.I think that our schools do not teach children to be disciplined, critical thinkers, and this, more than anything, is our greatest failure in education in this country.Believe me, Penguin, I have more years of religious instruction than you do. It was Judeo/Christian instruction, at that.Also, what would you do if I told you I was, say, a devout Hindu? Or a Buddhist monk? Or a religious Jew?Each of these religions are at least as old as Christianity, or older.Who are you to think that you have it right? You have been TAUGHT that you are special, saved, and, well, right, and that everyone else is wrong.You and the Taliban have something in common, eh?If your God is the kind of deity that would create me with the ability to think critically, while providing no direct evidence of his/her/it's existence, and all the while knowing that I would use my mind to doubt the veracity of the Bible as a divine book, and will therefore ultimately punish me for using all the mind power he/she/it gave me, then so be it. The afterlife will suck for me, and God set me up for failure.I would rather live my life being intellectually honest with myself than pretend to believe in a God like yours "just in case".------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

"By definition, yes, when it comes to the subject of the theory of evolution."
--Guess I would place me in the position to be the first then.------------------

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
There is no shame in not knowing about science, Penguin.
KP: theres shame in not having faith in christ.

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The shame is in forming a strong opinion about an entire field of study, and making direct claims about these fields of study, without knowing anything about them.
KP: just as you dont understand christianity and the bible. i never claimed to be a scientist did i? no i claimed to be opiniated and faithful to christ, which i am.

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This just means that you are talking smack, and that is a shameful, ignorant way for anyone to act.
KP: having an opinion is talking smack? im a very sarcastic person, youd have to meet me to understand.

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I think that our schools do not teach children to be disciplined, critical thinkers, and this, more than anything, is our greatest failure in education in this country.
KP: they teach us to be slaves to our countries, sigh.

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Believe me, Penguin, I have more years of religious instruction than you do. It was Judeo/Christian instruction, at that.
KP: yet you do not have an understanding because you do not have faith in christ, without this faith your study is meaningless. im not taking science mostly because its not my favorite thing but also because i dont feel that i need to have a career or a devotion in it to understand it or life.

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Also, what would you do if I told you I was, say, a devout Hindu? Or a Buddhist monk? Or a religious Jew?
KP: i would pray for your soul as if you were an atheist.

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Each of these religions are at least as old as Christianity, or older.
KP: they claim to be and their wasnt christianity until 2000 years ago. you know this and i know this. so why argue? just because theyve been around longer doesnt mean theyre any more correct.

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Who are you to think that you have it right? You have been TAUGHT that you are special, saved, and, well, right, and that everyone else is wrong.
KP: youve been taught all of science and make statements based of that knowledge as well. actually though i never pay any attention in my youth groups or in church, so i dont see how i was taught anything. i made my own opinion of things and determined it using my understanding of everything.

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You and the Taliban have something in common, eh?
KP: dont provoke me.

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If your God is the kind of deity that would create me with the ability to think critically, while providing no direct evidence of his/her/it's existence, and all the while knowing that I would use my mind to doubt the veracity of the Bible as a divine book, and will therefore ultimately punish me for using all the mind power he/she/it gave me, then so be it. The afterlife will suck for me, and God set me up for failure.
KP: he set you up for a choice in life. being a rebel is rarely cool and being cattle is rarely cool. if you dont have faith in christ and refuse to believe and have faith in it no matter what science and the bible shows you, than you can spend your eternity in hell. lastly God isnt just a deity he is the deity; and you claim to have been in religious instruction, hah.

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I would rather live my life being intellectually honest with myself than pretend to believe in a God like yours "just in case".
KP: its not just in case, that may be your own understanding but dont make decisions for others. your immortal soul is your own to have or to throw away.

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"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

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[This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 02-14-2002]

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
1) KP: theres shame in not having faith in christ.

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2)KP: yet you do not have an understanding because you do not have faith in christ, without this faith your study is meaningless.

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3)KP: youve been taught all of science and make statements based of that knowledge as well.

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4)KP:lastly God isnt just a deity he is the deity; and you claim to have been in religious instruction, hah.

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1)An adherant of any other faith could claim the exact same thing, what makes them wrong and you right? Shame on you KP for not believing in Marks galactic goat.....2)Raises an interesting question how do you acquire faith? It seems to me that faith i.e. a non evidence based belief in some postulate can not be intentionally developed, but is rather an intrinsic capacity....So if you cannot intentionally acquire faith does this mean that there is no point to reading the bible because "without this faith your study is meaningless."?3)There is a difference science encourages well conducted attempts to re-interpret the evidence and even replace entire theories.....4)So what are Odin, Zeus, Apollo, Horus, Ahura Mazda, Kali, the Dagda, Neptune, Allah et al?They are deities so claiming that your God is THE singular deity is an interesting assertion....You may have had religious instruction but you would do well to learn about other faiths than christianity.....