IS THERE A TRUE CHURCH IN THE WORLD TODAY?

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But, if Jehovah in the Bible lays out an experiment that can be done to "prove" or "test" Him and His Scriptures, then doing that experiment validates the claim that the Bible is true.

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Still purely circular reasoning. You assume that there is a Jehovah because the bible says there is a Jehovah and thus conclude there is a Jehovah.

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You prepare a sampling of the recipes. If they taste good, the cookbook is good. If not, it is a fraud.

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When I was very young I was and indoctrinated believer...I prayed and believed the mythology though became skeptical very early on (though until I was 4 I believed that Godzilla's son Tadzilla was alive in Japan. The cook book did nothing for me and prayer had no effect, positive or negative, on me or anyone around me anecdotally or even in the studies you quote which show there was no effect (detrimental effects in one study that I cited and you ignored). Thus, the cookbook is a fraud..glad we got that out of the way.

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I don't believe in compelling reasons, and even if I thought there were any, would not use them

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But that is just not true. You believe only in your "personally" compelling religious anecdotes. In the face of contradictory evidence you feel that argument from supposed authority, the bible confirming the bible, and personal anecdote are all the compelling reason you need to claim that your personal beliefs are the truth. There is nothing objective about your mythology and your beliefs carry no more weight than those of a devout Hindu or Muslim or any other religious persons.

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But, it's better than you make it sound. I'd rather think that I am right than be president.

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I rather "know" that I am as right as far as the tentativeness of science can provide than be president or merely think that I am right.

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And, when you die, if you're wrong, oh my, what a comedown that will be.

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Why is that? If Vishnu is the true god and mightiest god of the Hindu pantheon and I die and meet him, it will be up to him to explain why if he created me, he could not convince me of his existence. If the galactic pink unicorn is real, I will offer him some sugar.

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Meanwhile, the fact that I am having a wonderful time rather balances the opinions you and some others have expressed.

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Considering your angry and hateful outburst against agnostic in the Free for All, it sounds like you are a fairly miserable or at least very angry person ...but regardless, ignorance is bliss.

And you are tongue in cheek assuming that if any God steps up to the plate and you meet them, you will even have anything of value to offer them! (Him)

Why not? If god/gods/pink unicorns created me ex nihilo then I am their responsibility. It is their fault I was created..so unless they are completely apathetic bozos they should be interested.... And while these mythical beings are at it, they can explain the unbelievable crappy design of the human genome, the unbelieveble waste and inefficiency of biological metabolism, my tail bone and nipples and on and on and on....myths are great...you can do anything with them and never be wrong. I think I see the appeal of creationism now.

In other words, "Hey! My rational mind has already convinced me that YOU don't exist but in the event that you ARE real, I want to know some things! First, why is this place so imperfect?
God might say: Hey! It sounds better than the pink unicorn in my book!

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In other words, "Hey! My rational mind has already convinced me that YOU don't exist but in the event that you ARE real, I want to know some things! First, why is this place so imperfect?

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Umm, no, ....I was humoring Stephen because of his "what if you are wrong" statement. Just because I do not believe in god/gods/pink unicorns etc does not mean I have no ability to fantasize.

Of course you see it as a fantasy! If He appeared to you, you would go to the Doctor to see what caused the hallucination!

Since this thread doesn't look on topic to me, anyway, I just have one comment. I'd like to add my complaint about nipples. I've found that anytime I run over six miles, they become just about my major hindrance. I have to bandaid over them, but then, my evolution to a hairless primate is not complete, so the bandaids stick to the hairs on my chest. It's all very annoying. (I suppose one could argue that we weren't meant to wear shirts, but then I need some of that ancient fur back, or I'm going to freeze in winter!)

I was just thinking about nipples at the moment to..not yours though..not mine either Basically, male development is female development with androgens tossed in. If you suppress androgen production (or in some genetic defects, cripple androgen receptors) the fetus will develope as a female even if genetically male. So if you feel like a woman trapped in a mans body...just look at your nipples to confirm it ..and why would you want to run over six miles?...you definitely need to move the beer fridge closer to the camp

Getting back on topic...is the True church..(The Bride) composed of a Holy and blameless people within the camp?(Metaphor similar to early Israelites) Is the camp pure? Are there people in the camp who think about "titties" and beer fridges? (Hey...nobody is perfect)
Or are we talking about the homies chillin OUTSIDE of the camp? (Ones who want nothing to do with being chosen)[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-27-2004]

M.You mis-paraphrase me by saying, The correct version is, I consider the idea that there is a Jehovah because the bible says that such a being is an important part of my ecosystem. The bible describes an experiment requiring data from outside the bible to confirm that this idea is true. I do the experiment, and find that the predicted pattern of data is found. The idea that this Jehovah person is really out there is increased. I've known many bad cooks who blamed the cookbook. It turned out that they never learned how to read and follow directions.This comment, baffles me. It is so far removed from how I have described how I arrive at plausible ideas, and how I have dealt with data on these threads, that I am at a loss to know how you arrived there.Here we agree: I have done the best I could to understand and apply sound scientific methodology, with great success professionally. As I understand science, it confirms everything I think is right. Some say that I don't understand science, but they also tell me to not trust authority, including theirs, I presume. They cannot demonstrate with evidence that I don't understand science, and the evidence I present, namely the success of the science that resulted from my understanding, is all my way. If you are wrong about Jehovah being the one true God, is what I meant. Then, if you meet Vishnu, he will immediately begin an eternity of torturing you, laughing at your protestations, or offer of bribes. I like being angry. Especially righteous anger. It's an emotion like any other, normal, and a pleasure to express correctly.Cheers,Stephen

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You mis-paraphrase me by saying,

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Nope, I pretty much got it right....

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I consider the idea that there is a Jehovah because the bible says...

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Couple this with the a priori assumption that the conclusion is correct and you can claim that the Holy Handgranade of Antioch is the one true god.

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It turned out that they never learned how to read and follow directions.

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That is funny. In science anybody with any religious background can reproduce the results of any experiment (or show they are in error) by following directions...and if the experiments are not reproducible the conclusions are not accepted. In your case, if you agree with Stephen, it is correct, if you disagree with Stephen you did it wrong and Stephen is correct..you are also required to believe in the same god in the same way as Stephen...your method is restricted to your imagination as opposed to methodological naturalism which is not so constrained.

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that I am at a loss to know how you arrived there.

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..by reading your posts

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As I understand science, it confirms everything I think is right.

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How odd, most scientific experiments show that the original hypothesis was in error...100% success in confirmation of results is usually indicative of error or fraud.

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They cannot demonstrate with evidence that I don't understand science, and the evidence I present, namely the success of the science that resulted from my understanding, is all my way

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Besides the fact that you have been shown where you are in error and universally ignore it, it is funny that you consider your present state success. I would consider it a pretty bad failure if I could not convince anyone that even a fraction of what I say has even the remotest possibility of being correct and when asked to support my claims, failed in every attempt. It also must sting to be restricted to posting musings on internet sites as opposed to interacting with the scientific community.

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Then, if you meet Vishnu, he will immediately begin an eternity of torturing you, laughing at your protestations, or offer of bribes.

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These are some pretty specific assertions about a god you do not even believe in...if Vishnu exists, there is just as much chance that he puts me in a golden chariot filled with swedish bikini models and an infnite supply of my favorite pizza for an eternity of sex and quality Italian food as there is in your ridiculous "predicition"

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I like being angry. Especially righteous anger. It's an emotion like any other, normal, and a pleasure to express correctly.

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Well, then I would say I pity you. While I do experience anger and agree that it can be cathartic, for the most part I experience the love of my wife, family and friends..I guess I am doing better off than you after all.

I don't think Mammuthus claims to be or wants to be in the camp you're describing.

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I find the religious to be even more arbitrary and variable in their beliefs than non-believers.

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I know I'm coming to this a little late, but I just had to pipe in.You are so right.If one is religious, it seems easier to just say "X is true because I believe it is." In this kind of social and cultural atmosphere it is perfectly acceptable to believe whatever anyone wants to based upon nothing more that wanting to. Even worse, believing something to avoid the discomfort of not knowing.

So you are perhaps suggesting that I am being a bit extremist or zealous? Nay Arrogant?

You need to wear better fabric next to your skin that won't chafe. The high-tech workout clothes really do help with that kind of thing.