Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Random or just incomplete information?
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 6 of 44 (738495)
10-11-2014 8:20 AM


Does the causal chain continue?
I have never been able to get my head around the idea that the causal chain fizzles out into quantum randomness. A state where things happen for no reason.
I came across this article which, I think, goes contrary to the idea that the causal chain somehow ends at the quantum level. Am I reading this correctly? Does the universe make sense after all?
quote:
The neutron scattering experiments conducted with a mixture of ortho and para hydrogen showed that a number of forbidden transitions from the para-H2 ground state were systematically absent from the resultant spectra. This confirmed the existence of a molecular selection rule, a discovery which runs counter to the widely held view that such molecular compounds are not subject to any selection rules.
Source

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 10-11-2014 1:11 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 10-11-2014 2:21 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 9 of 44 (738535)
10-11-2014 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by RAZD
10-11-2014 2:21 PM


Re: Does the causal chain continue?
If we consider 'Brane theory and additional dimensions, is it not feasible that quantum randomness is actually a multi-dimensional phenomena that appears random in our sector?
It's turtles all the way down ...
I always thought that randomness was only a reflection on our ability to predict and not a condition where things happened without a cause. I can't find the posts but I am sure that cavediver and CatSci have told me that there is a randomness to quantum mechanics that has nothing to do with our lack of information. Brownian motion and virtual particles come to mind. Also NoNukes was stating unequivocally that particle decay is random even though the rate is predictable. I forget which thread that was in, maybe the one about absolute truth.
So yes it makes good sense to me that causality goes all the way down but I have been told to ignore my sensibilities in this case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 10-11-2014 2:21 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 10-11-2014 9:13 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied
 Message 12 by Straggler, posted 10-13-2014 8:01 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 13 of 44 (738620)
10-13-2014 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dr Adequate
10-11-2014 11:42 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
Thanks Dr A. I don't pretend to understand more than a fraction of what they are saying but I get a general feel for it. I really fixed on this statement;
quote:
The de Broglie wave has a macroscopical analogy termed Faraday wave.[2]
This led me to surmise that the theory states that the universe behaves like the water in this video.
Am I even close?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-11-2014 11:42 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2014 11:42 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 14 of 44 (738621)
10-13-2014 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Straggler
10-13-2014 8:01 AM


Re: probabilities are fundamental, that there is no "deeper truth"
Yes thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Straggler, posted 10-13-2014 8:01 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 22 of 44 (738675)
10-14-2014 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Adequate
10-13-2014 10:22 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
Yes. And the wiring makes its behavior non-local.
Is the non-local behaviour explained by some type of sub manifold that is folded up within the configuration space?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-13-2014 10:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-14-2014 11:46 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 28 of 44 (738748)
10-15-2014 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by NoNukes
10-14-2014 3:45 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
All of the rules we know about forces and fields are local, which causes me to have issues accepting this formulation,
Aren't entangled particles evidence of non-local forces?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2014 3:45 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 30 of 44 (738812)
10-16-2014 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by 1.61803
10-15-2014 10:23 AM


Re: @$%8 happens
At the most fundamental level things do just happen without causes.
God wills it!
I guess that it bothers me because for everything else in the universe -
quote:
When viewed in an inertial reference frame, an object either remains at rest or continues to move at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an external force.
I would say that things acting without cause would be a good example of supernatural behaviour.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by 1.61803, posted 10-15-2014 10:23 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by 1.61803, posted 10-16-2014 10:12 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 36 of 44 (739144)
10-20-2014 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Son Goku
10-19-2014 3:29 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness
To cut a very long story short, ...
What we need is an introduction to quantum pyhysics thread!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Son Goku, posted 10-19-2014 3:29 PM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2014 7:28 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 38 of 44 (739156)
10-21-2014 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by RAZD
10-21-2014 7:28 AM


Re: Quantum Randomness
Yeah kinda like that but with more chapters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2014 7:28 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2014 10:58 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 44 of 44 (739222)
10-21-2014 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by RAZD
10-21-2014 10:58 AM


Re: Quantum Randomness
If only we could calculate the probability that someone would spontaneously arrive, without motive, and produce such a thing then we could know for certain that we can't be sure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2014 10:58 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024