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Author | Topic: The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 800 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
No. I'm saying that the evidence is no longer avaialable, so it does not carry the same weight for people today. All we have left is the second-hand, third-hand, etc. watering-down of the actual evidence and no, we certainly can not believe that without corroboration.
In other words you can never believe anything anyone ever tells you about something you haven't seen.
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Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 1833 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
And I am saying that is ridiculously spurious reasoning.
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Phat Member Posts: 18762 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
If you felt that you had a conversion experience...despite lack of evidence apart from the fact that you were under no other undue influences...and if that inner feeling persisted for the next week...then a month...would you by challenging and doubting it be any better off? I let the feeling continue for many years...to the point that I fed it by attending church and was rewarded with confirmation bias through shared experience with others. As for me personally, I'm open-minded enough to question these things but not strong enough to simply throw them away as if God were simply a science experiment in critical thinking. You always claim that the message alone is important. Doing the message must surely make you feel better about yourself by helping others.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 800 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
But you haven't pointed out anything ridiculous or spurious about it. And I am saying that is ridiculously spurious reasoning. Thomas didn't believe the disciples. He waited for the first-hand evidence that they claimed to have seen. Clearly, he thought that hearsay was less reliable than hard evidence. And Jesus didn't rebuke him for his skepticism; rather He offered the hard evidence. Why should we have lower standards than Thomas?
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ringo Member (Idle past 800 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What would that feel like?
If you felt that you had a conversion experience... Phat writes:
You're always better off getting to the truth of a matter instead of clinging to a subjective impression.
...and if that inner feeling persisted for the next week...then a month...would you by challenging and doubting it be any better off?
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Phat Member Posts: 18762 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
You don't get it though---I was different. Not simply a bad burrito feeling in the gut. I'm talking 180 degrees different. A totally new awareness. It carried me for...well...forever if you attribute that one event to today. It's a matter of belief. Is Jesus alive in my heart and mind or is it just me and always was and will be me? You don't expect any obligation from God to leave objective evidence unless he planned on blessing everybody with the same gift. Which I don't see as the case.
Scripture clearly says that few will be chosen. If He simply let all of the riff raff in the door, heaven would become a giant orgie! Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 800 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I asked how you would recognize that difference.
You don't get it though---I was different. Phat writes:
So why is that awareness not manifest in your understanding here?
I'm talking 180 degrees different. A totally new awareness. Phat writes:
I keep asking, if Jesus was alive in your heart and mind - whatever that means - how would you know? How would you tell the difference between that and Loki being alive in your heart and mind?
Is Jesus alive in my heart and mind or is it just me and always was and will be me? Phat writes:
Why would the "gift" be given to certain people and not to others? Why would the gift be given mostly to people whose relatives and neighbours had been given the same gift? Why would it be a gift at all and not just standard equipment?
You don't expect any obligation from God to leave objective evidence unless he planned on blessing everybody with the same gift. Phat writes:
Does it?
Scripture clearly says that few will be chosen.
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Phat Member Posts: 18762 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
ringo writes: We know yor position regarding this. When you talk about "the Fall", you're calling God a liar because He said Adam and Eve had become more like Him. That is not a "Fall". But consider: Satan was "like God" in a sense. Yet most dogma has Satan falling. A&E fell only in the sense that they learned to think for themselves before they were ready to graduate. Yes, humans have survived and "grown" for many years, but some would argue that in one important sense we lost our connection to a planned inheritance. We can argue all day whether or not growing up in the sense of growing independent is always a good thing.
ringo writes: You really need to explain yourself here.
Denying Jesus Christ is rational and logical.ringo writes: There you go again, falling back on your chosen understanding. If there was no fall, there would be no need for a redeemer. Are you prepared to defend that premise? And you deny God when he says there was no "Fall". Anyway, what I wanted to do was once again focus on the Garden Of Eden metaphorical story and see if we can forge solid ground. What is the story meant to teach? Is it teaching limited to the audience for which it was written? If in fact, the "apologists" got it all wrong, why are they all in agreement with each other while you and a few other skeptics remain outliers?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
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Phat Member Posts: 18762 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Bringing this line of argument to a faith topic rather than a science one:
Phat writes:
You all want a BIG God, should One exist. When the whole point of the Trinity and that view is to make GOD personal rather than extremely huuuuge, (like "The Force" in Star Wars. )ringo writes: Perhaps I need to be more clear. Of course, I believe in a BIG God, but also and more importantly a knowable interactive One. jar claims this as my pet fantasy, as well as the fantasy of the CCoI.
You're being dishonest. You yourself constantly refer to "the Creator of all that is". That is necessarily a big God.Phat writes:
My POV is that God is knowable and approachable.ringo writes: My "fruit" needs no defending from me. I can toot my own horn and write my own resume all day, but I'll let others defend me. Let's start by turning that around. You claim that the job of a human is to help others. God is irrelevant to you. So how do you rate your own fruit as we start 2020? And yet your fruit doesn't show any sign of His presence.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
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ringo Member (Idle past 800 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It isn't "my position". It's what the Bible says.
We know yor position regarding this. Phat writes:
You're the one who thinks that Satan exists as a single entity. I have told you before that the Big Bad Wolf who dies in Little Red Riding Hood is not necessarily the same Big Bad Wolf who dies in The Three Little Pigs.
But consider: Satan was "like God" in a sense. Phat writes:
If they learned to think for themselves, they were ready to graduate.
A&E fell only in the sense that they learned to think for themselves before they were ready to graduate. Phat writes:
So go ahead, make an argument that independence is a bad thing.
We can argue all day whether or not growing up in the sense of growing independent is always a good thing. Phat writes:
I think I have. No evidence that unicorns exist is the same as no evidence that Christ existed. You're the one who needs to explain how that is not logical and rational.
ringo writes:
You really need to explain yourself here. Denying Jesus Christ is rational and logical. Phat writes:
There's no "choice" involved. It's what the Bible says. How can becoming like God be a fall?
There you go again, falling back on your chosen understanding. Phat writes:
Correct. There isn't.
If there was no fall, there would be no need for a redeemer. Phat writes:
Yup. Been there. Done that.
Are you prepared to defend that premise? Phat writes:
To begin with, the talking snake should be your first clue that it wasn't meant to be taken literally.
What is the story meant to teach? Phat writes:
Who is your phone bill meant for? Maybe some detective can glean some useful information from it to solve some crime. Or maybe in the future some archaeologist might gain some insights about our society from it. But isn't it fairly obvious that it's meant for the addressee?
Is it teaching limited to the audience for which it was written? Phat writes:
That appeal to popularity is getting tiresome. You can stop using it any time. If in fact, the "apologists" got it all wrong, why are they all in agreement with each other while you and a few other skeptics remain outliers? If the apologists' arguments are so persuasive, why can't you repeat them in your own words?"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 800 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Sure it does. If you're going to claim that your "experiences" with God have "transformed" you (presumably into a better human being), then there should be some external sign of that transformation. By your fruits we shall know you. Do you know who said that? My "fruit" needs no defending from me. We're warned to beware of false prophets so yes, you do need to show the world that you're not one of them.
Phat writes:
No, I don't claim anything. I have observed - and it's a fairly common observation - that humans are a social species that has a better chance of survival if we help each other. I have also observed that there are no signs of any spooks helping us help each other, so yes, any and all gods are functionally irrelevant. You claim that the job of a human is to help others."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6276 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
ringo writes:
My "fruit" needs no defending from me. And yet your fruit doesn't show any sign of His presence. Uh, I do not see where ringo had said that. If you are replying to a different message of his, then shouldn't you cite it so that we could all have proper context? This is the closest thing in ringo's Message 307, to which you replied, that I can find:
ringo writes: Phat writes:
Why would the "gift" be given to certain people and not to others? Why would the gift be given mostly to people whose relatives and neighbours had been given the same gift? Why would it be a gift at all and not just standard equipment? You don't expect any obligation from God to leave objective evidence unless he planned on blessing everybody with the same gift. It appears to me that you two are talking about the Fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5. My understanding is that those qualities cannot be earned nor learned, but rather come to a Christian naturally. That is a doctrine that keeps coming up in deconversion stories by those who had been raised in the faith. Especially when they were entering religious adulthood (normally early teens which is marked by Confirmation, Bar/Bath Mitzvah, whatever the various flavors of Protestants use, etc), they begin to think seriously about their religion and also (especially among Protestants of the more extreme types) begin to worry about their own salvation status. One of the self tests they would use for being saved would be the Fruit of the Holy Spirit and they would interpret not having those automatic qualities as a sign that they are not actually saved. Of course, that would cause them great anxiety, which would be one of the factors leading them to deconversion. Now, in the sense of the Matthew 7:20 Test which I have frequently cited here to deaf ears, you would be the fruit of your religion, such that if you turn out to be wicked (as far too many "true Christians" prove to be) then that is proof that your religion is wicked and false and should be cut down and thrown into the fire. Jesus didn't leave any wiggle room in that test. But we're still lacking context for your "reply".
I can toot my own horn and write my own resume all day, but I'll let others defend me. Why would they? A recurrent theme among "true Christians" is that you are all completely on your own, that it's just between you and God and everybody else is required to butt out completely. I've had fundamentalists insist to me that that is the case.
Let's start by turning that around. You claim that the job of a human is to help others. Not really, but it is to everyone's benefit. We rely on others for the survival of our family and of us, just as others rely on us. That is why we form societies, to ensure mutual survival. It can be difficult to see that in urban settings with decent climates, but in rural settings and harsher climate that mutual dependency becomes more apparent -- eg, when I was stationed in North Dakota, everybody would immediately come to the aid of a stranger in the winter, because next time that stranger could very well be themselves. Of course, we don't reason all that out all the time, but rather we respond almost instinctively like it's been bred into us. When it has been. Our ability to feel empathy for others is a trait that has been bred into us over millions of years as we were becoming a social species. Those social groups whose members lacking empathy died out, whereas those groups with empathy survived and then thrived. Helping others is a win-win-win strategy (the third win going to the society).
God is irrelevant to you. So how do you rate your own fruit as we start 2020? We're all doing what we can. Having gods to judge us or no gods at all makes not difference. Edited by dwise1, : first paragraph: where, not what
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Phat Member Posts: 18762 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
dwise1 writes: Message 2429 Uh, I do not see where ringo had said that. If you are replying to a different message of his, then shouldn't you cite it so that we could all have proper context?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
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Phat Member Posts: 18762 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Double Post
Edited by Thugpreacha, : Double PostChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
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jar Member (Idle past 228 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat, what does any of the stuff you brought over here have to do with the TOPIC?
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