ghosts

The following link is to a site that reports on a project
that recorded individual EMF exposures over a 24 hour
period.The values in the final column of the data sets are
the magnetic field strengths in mGauss.Column five represenst location with 1 being Home.Note, at home the values are located between 0.6 and 1.1 mGuass.Anamolies in hauntings are reported at 2-7mGauss in locations
which are residences.http://www.emf-data.org/datasets/001/epa108.htmlThis link may also proove useful::Information Ventures, Inc. | Woops! We can't find what you're looking for[Added as an afterthought:: The first study was looking for
EMF exposure ... so there is no accounting for using the kettle
or sitting by the tv etc. In 'haunting' investigations an
average EMF value map is made first in conjunction with knowledge
of power-lines etc.][This message has been edited by Peter, 06-23-2003]

1. The second link is *mean* field strengths, and is thus irrelevant to this ongoing discussion, which is about anomalous *fluctuations*.2. IN the first data set, I see great variation in values at "home". In the last file alone, there are these readings from location "home":68.74
59.22
58.42
56.22
54.8
53.73
52.1
32.9
15.95
14.92
13.7
13.08
12.85
9.47
9.33
9.12
8.97
8.21
6.91
6.54
6.39
6.33
6.19
6.09
6.03All above the range of readings associated with hauntings.True, appliances, etc. aren't controlled for, which means the ideal "haunting" relevant research hasn't been done, apparently. But the existing data shows that large fluctuations in a person's emf exposure at home are common.

EMF fluctuations are known from known sources.These sources are either absent or accounted for in
research into supposedly haunted sites.My main reasons for linking to this data are:1) EMF meters are accepted scientific measurement instruments.
2) Average field strengths in residences lie around the .9mG range
in the absence of known sources.
3) EMF sources have been investigated and are understood.In a haunting investigation when a fluctuation is recorded, natural
sources are looked for first. When none can be found it is
recorded as an anomaly.As for what's happening ... dunno ... but EMF of 2mG and above have
been found to have biological effects (for example it can
affect melatonin production in mice, birds sense EMF to aid
navigation, it has been found to have sleep disturbing properties).With a *mean* field strength of 0.9mG, 2-7mG is a significant
fluctuation.

<
sources are looked for first. When none can be found it is
recorded as an anomaly.>>

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Yes, and Schraf's point all along is there is no reason to believe that "haunted" places have "anomalies" any more than any place else, which would be necessary to place any particular significance on an "anomaly". None of your three points is relevant to that.

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<
been found to have biological effects (for example it can
affect melatonin production in mice, birds sense EMF to aid
navigation, it has been found to have sleep disturbing properties).

​

With a *mean* field strength of 0.9mG, 2-7mG is a significant
fluctuation.>>

​

And people are exposed to much larger fluctuations everyday, at home and away.

​

I know you're not arguing that ghosts exist, or even that hauntings are real. But unexplained EMF fluctuations are not, in and of themselves, "evidence" FOR anything. Furthermore, we apparently have no idea about the frequency of such fluctuations under similar circumstances in non-"haunted" areas, so they may have no correlation with "hauntings" whatsoever.

​

It's not close-minded to think that the existence of ghosts is very, very unlikely, so unlikely as to not be worth spending time and money on. Ghost stories and "anomalies" are not evidence of a worthwhile line of investigation; there is far, far better evidence for the reality of dowsing, and that's truly a worthless line of research. "Hauntings" are a far worse case, as there are no specific concrete tests of a haunting. Any anomaly is simply labeled as "evidence" "for" a "haunting".

​

That said, you have the beginnings, the bare beginnings, of a testable hypothesis: That EMF fluctuations cause disturbances of consciousness (or something like that). Except, of course, we know people undergo such fluctuations of exposure constantly, apparently without experiencing a "haunting". So in its present form, the hypothesis is falsified.

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[This message has been edited by Zhimbo, 06-24-2003]

quote:

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That EMF fluctuations cause disturbances of consciousness...

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I would be much more skeptical of the reports of this if it weren't for something that happened to me. Once, I bought a really nice set of high-end stereo headphones. Whenever I sat down at the computer and put them on to listen to music, I got this overwhelming "impression" of someone dressed in a red flannel shirt, standing behind me with an axe! (Supress the Monty Python jokes, please.) Nothing actually visual or hallucinatory, just an "impression."Headphones on, impression; headphones off, no impression. Always the same impression. It was so strong, specific, and disturbing that I couldn't relax and enjoy the music.I tend to be fairly easy-going, rational, and fairly low on the suggestability scale. Maybe that's why events like this and the "ghost story" I related previously stick out in my mind. I also studied enough cog-psy in grad school to make me want to get to the scientific roots of the experience.It makes me think the links between EMF and the psychological impressions (e.g. of alien abduction) might be worth investigating. However, I also know enough electronics to realize that just going into an area waving around a handheld EMF meter -- like I've see "ghost hunters" on TV do -- is unlikely to yield meaningful, repeatable results.-Neil

They exist, no conspiring woodpecker need apply, & I could take this discussion to Becker's injury current SYLLOGISM to interact logically but instead note for now that calcium effluxs from brain tissue on non-ionzing radation and yet this element is often argued to be a trigger cause of cell death. Modern life may indeed kill us.

Great (creepily amusing) story. So many variables though; EM frequencies, audible frequencies, warmth of inner ear, pressure of headphones head, the actual music itself, the scent of the plastic or manufacturing adhesives.You may have seen a picture of such a dubious figure whilst buying the headphones and retained the image subconciously only to have it recollected when wearing them. You may even be schitzophrenic.So, so, many variables.

quote:

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So, so, many variables.

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I wholeheartedly agree. I present it as an anecdotal indication that there may be something worth looking into.Since grad school, I've maintained an interest in how neurology gives rise to what would popularly be termed "subjective" effects. (For example, the way Tourette's sufferers' outbursts will occur in a way that is relevant to their culture.)I've done a lot of reading about ghosts, aliens, etc. and they tend to occur in a culturally appropriate context. Yet, there are underlying similarities to the stories and their triggers that span times and cultures. I really think the neurological basis for such apparitions might be an interesting study.But of course, getting it through a grant comittee might be a little tough... -Neil

A more well-researched example of what I mean (more well-researched than ghosts and EMF anyway), is the "old hag" or traditional nightmare. This is the feeling of being suffocated or paralyzed by a mysterious presence while in the state between waking and sleeping. It's apparently related to sleep apnea and may have an hereditary component. It also exhibits culturally specific manifestations and interpretations, but has features which are common across time and culture.That ghosts and related phenomena are similar in nature is not too wild a conjecture. Perhaps the ghost phenomenon is just much less repeatable and pronounced -- which would tend to make it simultaneously more difficult to investigate and subjectively more mysterious-seeming.-Neilp.s. One good argument against EMF being the sole source of the ghost phenomenon is that fact that ghost stories have been around a long time. However, it's a complex phenomenon, with -- as David pointed out -- a lot of associated cultural noise.

My point being: I think it would be really cool if the spirits of the undead really did flit around disembodied. Unfortunately, I've seen no evidence of this in any reliable (!) ghost investigations. Science would have to first rule out the myriad cultural, psychological, and neurological explanations, and the signal to noise ratio may makes this tough.But then, neuropsychology is almost as interesting as the undead...-Neil

And, both subjects involve an obsession with brains!

quote:

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And, both subjects involve an obsession with brains!

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LOL! The statement was intended as a multi-faceted pun, but this was a connection that even I missed."Ixnay on the ottenray." -Igor.-Neil

quote:

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Yes, and Schraf's point all along is there is no reason to believe that "haunted" places have "anomalies" any more than any place else, which would be necessary to place any particular significance on an "anomaly". None of your three points is relevant to that.

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I was mainly addressing the feeling that I got from Schraf's
posts that she had an opbjection to the EMF meters and that
she felt EMF was something only looked at by ghost hunters.I may have been wrong, but that was the impression I got.I think that (barring my problem with finding a 'non-haunted'
location given that we don't even know if there are any
real 'haunted' ones) the data sets for personal exposure tend
to show fluctuations that can be related back to everyday,
explainable sources (stuff in the home, your car's wiring harness, etc.)That said, I have not seen a really good set of measurements
from a 'haunting' investigation .... so I'll concede that one
(in a best-practice-lack-of kind of way).

quote:

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And people are exposed to much larger fluctuations everyday, at home and away.

​

I know you're not arguing that ghosts exist, or even that hauntings are real. But unexplained EMF fluctuations are not, in and of themselves, "evidence" FOR anything. Furthermore, we apparently
have no idea about the frequency of such fluctuations under similar circumstances in non-"haunted" areas, so they may have no correlation with "hauntings" whatsoever.

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I noticed in research on sleep disturbances that the frequency
of the source of the EMF was relevent (I think the mouse study
mentioned that too).Not really saying that the EMF fluctuations are evidence for
'hauntings' only that, from stuff I have seen and read that such
fluctuations are one of the unexpected, measureable features of
a haunting. (Unlike temperature ... people often say they feel
a drop in temperature, but this is not recorded on thermometers
so is not 'real').The suggestion for me is that there MAY be more than a case
of the willy's going on.

quote:

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It's not close-minded to think that the existence of ghosts is very, very unlikely, so unlikely as to
not be worth spending time and money on

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This one I'll have to disagree on ... simply on the basis that we
have no evidence one way or the other.Discounting a possibility because of a cultural incredulity is
'close mindedness' isn't it?

quote:

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That said, you have the beginnings, the bare beginnings, of a testable hypothesis: That EMF fluctuations cause disturbances of consciousness (or something like that). Except, of course, we
know people undergo such fluctuations of exposure constantly, apparently without experiencing a "haunting". So in its present form, the hypothesis is falsified.

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This is true ... but it's not a falsification unless you can reproduce
the fields from a supposed 'haunting' at another site and see
if you generate any effects.

TV ghost hunters get squeely readings for the
'ratings effect'

Just as an additional curio I was reading about
free energy (not looked that up before but since Schraf
mentioned it I thought I'd see what people claim) and
found a report of some-one using somekind of magnetic
device to try to generate elecrtical power.They claim to have recorded noticeable temperature drops
around the equipment under test .... spooky [Oh and in the room above ... course the whole thing
WAS spinning so ...][This message has been edited by Peter, 07-03-2003][This message has been edited by Peter, 07-03-2003]