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Author Topic:   How did Noah deal with worms?
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 16 of 113 (130685)
08-05-2004 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by johnfolton
08-05-2004 10:42 AM


Yaro, Earthworms don't need soil, they can survive eating decayed organics, grass, as the rain washed the muds into the waters
What part of the name EARTH-Worm don't you get?
They live on soil, not mud. They need soil as shelter as well as food. Their digestive system is made to process soil, filter out nutrients, and collect grit in a crop (much like birds do). They need soil by definition!
Loose debris floating on the ocean surface just isn't going to cut it. You need a nice block of at least 6" of topsoil to support a good amount of earthworms.
I'm not sure about their larvae, if they could survive within an aquatic environment, till conditions were right to hatch, but that probably explains how the insects survived, perhap a bearing on earthworms multiplying, and how these forms of life likely repopulated the earth, after the biblical deluge.
From: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/zoo00/zoo00508.htm
"Earthworms must mate to reproduce, even though one earthworm contains both male and female reproductive organs. Eggs are formed in a slime tube that slips over the worm's head and forms a cocoon or capsule that incubates them. Eggs develop into tiny worms in the cocoon and crawl out through one end when ready to emerge. Cocoons vary in size and shape and are about 1/25 to 1/3 inch long. Some fast-maturing worms mature three to four months after hatching and will start their breeding cycle. Eggs are laid on top of the ground at one-month intervals, with each egg capsule containing 5 to 15 baby worms. If starting with two breeder beds, the crop will be ready for harvesting in about five months and continuing thereafter with proper care. Nightcrawlers are difficult to impossible to raise in homemade containers. Most resort to picking these worms from lawns, gardens and orchards for storing and future use. Worms live 10 to 15 years."
The eggs are laid above the ground, only incubate for a few months, and then spawn 10-15 baby worms. How could these eggs survive more than a year submerged?
Another issue is PH. Earthworms are delicate creatures and require a stable chemical environment as well. Slight variation in Soil PH can kill earthworms. How are they going to survive in salt water satturated debris?
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-05-2004 11:28 AM

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 17 of 113 (130699)
08-05-2004 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by johnfolton
08-05-2004 10:10 AM


whatever writes:
Mr. Jack, In a massive floating debris, you would have plenty of grass, leaves, tangled within the brush and trees floating above the waters so the worms could breathe, cause they too would be above the waters, cause the waters would flow through keeping everything moist, maintaining favorable habitats.
Actually, no. worms "breathe" by getting oxygen directly through their skin. Let us assume that somehow the worms were able to stay above water without falling off of the debris for 40 days and that they don't starve to death during that time, since it supposedly rained for 40 days and 40 nights the worms would have been constantly be wet all over during all that period. 40 days and 40 nights is more than long enough to suffocate them all.
You can do an experiment at home. Get an earthworm and put it in a glass. Put some water in but not too much. Allow enough space above for the worm to go above the water. Let it sit there for 40 days. Don't forget to keep pouring water into the glass if it starts to evaporate.
Gary, The solution to pollution might well be dilution, with all the fresh water today continually flowing into the oceans, they can not measure an increase in salinity, not that its not increasing, but Noah would of had fresh water to drink,
This is nonsense. Yes, there are a lot of rivers that flow directly into the ocean. But the ocean also loses water through evaporation. It's a never ending cycle. Water evaporate from the ocean, the evaporated water condense and rain down on land and into rivers, rivers flow back into the oceans, and the water evaporate again.
By the way, I'm just making sure, not that I want to insult your intelligence. The Na+ and Cl- ions don't evaporate along with the water. They remain with the solvent.
and the mixing action of the ocean would of buffered salinity changes preserving salt water habitats
What the hell is "mixing action of the ocean"?
corals, some if not all worms too perhaps would of survived as larvaes until conditions were right for them to hatch, many insects likely perished but too survived as larvae on these massive islands of debris that floated in mass to the massive fossil coal grave yards evident all across the world(some of these massive coal fields are hundreds of feet thick, thousands of miles long, hundreds of miles wide)depending on how the waters washed the worm habitat(floating debris) to the different respective coal yards of the world, all supporting evidence it was a world Flood.
Ignoring all the nonsense in this part, let us go back to the being wet issue. It supposedly rained for 40 days and 40 nights. That meant that everything on the surface was completely wet for 40 days and 40 nights. Wouldn't all the larvae suffocated to death, then? Larvae need oxygen too, you know.

The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
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hitchy
Member (Idle past 5118 days)
Posts: 215
From: Southern Maryland via Pittsburgh
Joined: 01-05-2004


Message 18 of 113 (130701)
08-05-2004 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Yaro
08-05-2004 12:26 PM


Who could resist fishing...
...in the biggest body of water ever created? Maybe NO-ah was an avid fisherman and brought along earthworms b/c he wanted to fish!
Wait, sorry, we don't use earthworms for saltwater fishing. Maybe the earthworms survived in the dirt NO-ah used to cover the floors of the stalls in which he kept the stegasaurus!

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 19 of 113 (130702)
08-05-2004 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
08-04-2004 10:26 PM


Yaro writes:
Finally, many worms are parasitic. Tapeworms, liver flukes, heart worm, etc. How did Noah bring these along? Did someone have to voluntaraly infect themselves?
I actually have to argue for the other side on this one.
Cases where people with parasitic worms, although rare in the developed countries, are quite common in undeveloped countries. I grew up in Viet Nam. Back then, having worms in your intestines didn't really mean that big of a deal. I know, now that I think about it, I don't know how I lived through all of that.
Anyway, people in the early days, especially thousands of years ago, undoubtedly didn't have the sanitation that we have today. I wouldn't be surprised if finding a tapeworm in your body in 4,000 BCE was thought to be common.

The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 20 of 113 (130722)
08-05-2004 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by coffee_addict
08-05-2004 1:28 PM


Ya Tapeworms maybe, but waht about the other parsites?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 113 (130725)
08-05-2004 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Yaro
08-05-2004 2:22 PM


I imagine there were fleas and lice to go around.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 22 of 113 (130729)
08-05-2004 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
08-05-2004 2:26 PM


errp... heheh
I meant parasitic worms.
Many parasitic worms cause much more than a little discomfort and the occasional freaky BM. Here are a few parasitic worms that Noah and co. had to be carrying around:
Wuchereria bancroft - elephantiasis
Flukes - many of which can cause failure of major organs such as liver flukes
Taenia solium - the prok tapeworm (though not only found in pork). A parasite that when ingested has a bad habit of having its tiny babys invade the bloodstream. this can cause them to mature in the heart where they can cause heart-attacks by blocking arteries, Lungs, causing Lung colapse, or even in the brain causing strokes.
Where Noah carrying these things along with them?
Edited: I don't think baby worms are considered larva. They hatch from eggs and grow from there. There is no metamorphasis from an intermediary stage.
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-05-2004 01:45 PM

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 113 (130732)
08-05-2004 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Yaro
08-05-2004 2:37 PM


I think you miss the point. See, all he needed was to of the KIND parasite. All the other varieties are just examples of post-deluvian micro-evolution. The best guess is that the women on board carried the parasites. Just like a woman to screw the whole world up a second time.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 24 of 113 (130735)
08-05-2004 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Yaro
08-05-2004 2:37 PM


The only thing I can think of to answer about the other parasitic worms is that they all came from whatever the worms that were inside Noah and his miserable family members. Creationists have no problem with the so-called microevolution. After all, all the parasitic worms are the same "kind".

The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 25 of 113 (130742)
08-05-2004 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by coffee_addict
08-05-2004 2:56 PM


they all came from whatever the worms that were inside Noah and his miserable family members.
But if Noah and his family followed the Mosaic laws (such as only eating 'clean' things), they should be free of parasites (and DNA mutations for that matter...)

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 26 of 113 (130796)
08-05-2004 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by pink sasquatch
08-05-2004 3:22 PM


Well, maybe they indeed volunteered to hold those creatures inside their intestines.

The Laminator
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 27 of 113 (130901)
08-06-2004 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by coffee_addict
08-05-2004 1:21 PM


Its kind of ineresting, however, is not water flowing over rocks quite oxygenated, the worms if I'm not mistaken absorb oxygen through their surface, the rainwater could only have a neutral ph, and the debris pressing together would of provided shelter the earth worms from the rain, within the grass organics as food, given its not as a glass jar because the water would be draining through the debris, it all seems to be quite a perfect moist highly oxygenated environment for growing earthworms. I also never heard of rain raining salt water, it leaves the sodium cloride molecules behind in the oceans, so the rain raining on the floating debris could only be neutral in ph, over the continents, over the ocean I agree you would have some salt overspray not related to the rain raining down, so I'd agree that this overspray, on a windy day might of affected earthworm populations in the debris floating out over the salty ocean rather than over the continents, that could only be freshwater, confirmed via the freshwater aquifiers over the continents.
P.S. I think were kinda talking about aerobic critters, larvae, that need oxygenated environments. With water splashing on the debris, it would of oxygenated the waters, helping larvae survive, it was not like an anaerobic condition, devoid of oxygen, like the stagnant waters on a lawn, but a dynamic condition, where the waters continually drained through the debris, bringing fresh oxygenated waters, continually for aquatic aerobic parasite loving worms too (the reason parasite worms likely inhabit people is because the gut is an aerobic process)and why you encouraged to drink yogart, fiber, is for the beneficial aerobic organism (so not to generate an anerobic condition), and to drink plenty of neutral ph mineral water, etc...

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 28 of 113 (130964)
08-06-2004 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by johnfolton
08-06-2004 1:35 AM


Re:
the debris pressing together would of provided shelter the earth worms from the rain, within the grass organics as food, given its not as a glass jar because the water would be draining through the debris, it all seems to be quite a perfect moist highly oxygenated environment for growing earthworms
Well, Can you explain how a raft of topsoil driftend on the ocean for a whole year?
Earthworms will not survive in loose, floating, debris. Let alone debris that are saturated in Salt Watter.
Even if the rain were freashwatter, the vast majority of the water on earth (oceans) are salt watter. Unfortunetly duping a ton of rain on the world would invariably mix the freshwater and saltwater to the point where there was only salt watter.
This water would kill the earthworms.

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 29 of 113 (131010)
08-06-2004 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Yaro
08-06-2004 10:13 AM


Well, Can you explain how a raft of topsoil driftend on the ocean for a whole year?
It wouldn't be a raft of topsoil, you need to think hydroponics, and theorize this would hold true for earthworms, too. Were talking oxygenated water, nutrient rich silts washing thru the debris, if the matrix is oxygenated, is there any reason the earthworms wouldn't beable to absorb oxygen, as long as excess moisture is draining thru the debris thats floating above the waters.
hydroponics ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hdr-pnks)
n. (used with a sing. verb)
Cultivation of plants in nutrient solution rather than in soil.
Earthworms will not survive in loose, floating, debris. Let alone debris that are saturated in Salt Watter.
Were talking of a whole lot of debris, trees, brush, grass, leaves no reason it wouldn't tangle together compacting enough, for earth worm habitats.
Even if the rain were freashwatter, the vast majority of the water on earth (oceans) are salt watter. Unfortunetly duping a ton of rain on the world would invariably mix the freshwater and saltwater to the point where there was only salt watter.
The freshwater over the continents did not mix with the oceans until they washed off the earth. The waters welled upward over the continents as freshwater, over the oceans it welled upward mixing with the oceans salty waters, thus preserving the freshwater fisheries, and the saltwater fisheries, etc...
This water would kill the earthworms.
Salt water would of killed the earthworms, but over the continents it was fresh water raining down, causing the welling up of waters over the continents. The reason they washed off the earth is given in psalm 104:6-10, that God created valleys for them to rush to, meaning he lowered the oceans to recieve the fresh waters that flooded the earth, it was at this time the fresh waters over the continents flowed to the salty oceans, God even takes credit for creating the freshwater springs, within the context of the flood, supporting the fresh water aquifiers are the result of the flood waters over the continents being freshwater and not salt water. kjv psalms 104:10-13. Its the waters over the continents being freshwater, the ph would be perfect for earthworm growth, if it was an oxygenated aqautic habitat, it would of allowed the earthworms to absorb oxygen, even if they were swimming a bit, they could crawl out and be continually absorbing oxygen, cause it would not be a anerobic condition {stagnant water}, etc...
This article said earthworms live on the sandy bottoms of lakes, maybe he didn't mean earthworms, but it also said as summer algae blooms die offs decreased the oxygen levels deplete killing off some of the these oxygen dependent micro-organisms. Like what is an earth worm doing on the bottom of a lake, likely absorbing oxygen, feeding on organics, apparently earthworms have an ability to adapt, to the different aerobic environments, etc...
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The sandy bottom is home to sponges, snails, earthworms and insects. Muddy bottoms house crayfish, the nymphs of mayflies, dragonflies and damselflies, as well as leeches and snails.

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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 113 (131013)
08-06-2004 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by johnfolton
08-06-2004 12:47 PM


Re:
quote:
It wouldn't be a raft of topsoil, you need to think hydroponics, and theorize this would hold true for earthworms, too. Were talking oxygenated water, nutrient rich silts washing thru the debris, if the matrix is oxygenated, is there any reason the earthworms wouldn't beable to absorb oxygen, as long as excess moisture is draining thru the debris thats floating above the waters.
An earthworm's skin needs to be moist for the very same reason your lungs have to be moist. The moisture is required for gas exchange. And just like us, if their "lungs" are completely covered in inches of water they will drown. So no, this will not work.
quote:
Were talking of a whole lot of debris, trees, brush, grass, leaves no reason it wouldn't tangle together compacting enough, for earth worm habitats.
Sorry, doesn't work. This was a violent flood, so we wouldn't have areas that are both dry and moist enough for earthworm habitats. They would die.
quote:
Salt water would of killed the earthworms, but over the continents it was fresh water raining down, causing the welling up of waters over the continents.
Doesn't matter, fresh water will drown the earthworms as quickly as salt water. Secondly, you have no evidence of these environments that you speak of, so arguing with you is a moot point anyway.

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