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Author Topic:   For ToErs Eyes Only
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 110 (253841)
10-21-2005 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Larni
10-21-2005 9:57 AM


Re: Is it just me?
quote:
America could be a far greater source of scientific and human progress if it devoted less energy to religion and more to pushing forwards.
We only have this problem because you sent these clowns here 350 years ago. Why don't you do us a favor and take a few back?

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Larni, posted 10-21-2005 9:57 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by MangyTiger, posted 10-21-2005 9:11 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 64 by Larni, posted 10-24-2005 10:12 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6434 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 62 of 110 (253884)
10-21-2005 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Chiroptera
10-21-2005 6:47 PM


Re: Is it just me?
We only have this problem because you sent these clowns here 350 years ago. Why don't you do us a favor and take a few back?
No no no!
We sent the convicts to Australia (explains a lot ) but the fundies chose to go America.
We're already seeing the malign influence of your fundies trying to cleanse our 'Godless' islands, so I'm afraid we'll have to regretfully decline your request.

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Chiroptera, posted 10-21-2005 6:47 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Nighttrain, posted 10-21-2005 10:43 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 63 of 110 (253912)
10-21-2005 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by MangyTiger
10-21-2005 9:11 PM


Re: Is it just me?
We sent the convicts to Australia (explains a lot )
Kinda explains our anti-authoritarian outlook.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by MangyTiger, posted 10-21-2005 9:11 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 64 of 110 (254425)
10-24-2005 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Chiroptera
10-21-2005 6:47 PM


Re: Is it just me?
We tried to deal with them once, but you went and got the French involved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Chiroptera, posted 10-21-2005 6:47 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 110 (255382)
10-28-2005 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-15-2005 12:06 AM


What topics to debate
I keep finding myself drawn back to this thread. If one were to look around and initiate or join an ongoing debate about evolution, what topics should be presented.
To argue the points about god and ID is, to a large extent, useless. Re: all the points that Nuggin made in the original post and the response posted.
Assume we have an audience of people that just do not know must about evolution. I would also assume that the education level ranges from junior high through graduate studies. I come up with two questions.
What topics should be initiated?
How should we deal with the bible thumpers that keep throwing their garbage into the discussion? As much as I might like, you can't just shoot them or chase them out.
Just as must as personal replies, I am looking for some we sites where I can download some material and read up on how this debate might be pursued.
BTW: How is the trial going in pensylvania? I just did some google searches and really did not find anything recent or worth reading. I see that as on topic as the trial is an example of dealing with the bible thumpers. Much as they deny, ID is a religious position.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by nwr, posted 10-28-2005 5:41 PM bkelly has replied
 Message 67 by robinrohan, posted 10-28-2005 5:43 PM bkelly has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6419
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 66 of 110 (255384)
10-28-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by bkelly
10-28-2005 5:33 PM


Re: What topics to debate
bkelly writes:
What topics should be initiated?
My current opinion is that we should allow topics to be initiated by those who have questions, those you describe as our audience.
Once questions are asked, we should attempt to answer them as clearly as we can, and in a friendly manner where we can.
That's just my opinion. You might have different ideas.
BTW: How is the trial going in pensylvania?
It's always hard to tell until the decision is in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by bkelly, posted 10-28-2005 5:33 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by bkelly, posted 10-28-2005 5:53 PM nwr has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 110 (255385)
10-28-2005 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by bkelly
10-28-2005 5:33 PM


Re: What topics to debate
If one were to look around and initiate or join an ongoing debate about evolution, what topics should be presented.
One hot topic is the definition of "species." You might look at mine in the forum called "All species are transitional." I totally vanquished Parasomnium; and, believe me, that's not easy to do.

"Turning out pigs for creationists makes me blue and blurry."--Brad McFall

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bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 110 (255388)
10-28-2005 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by nwr
10-28-2005 5:41 PM


Re: What topics to debate
Thanks nwr. From your response, should I infer the trial has been sent to the jury?
As I say that, it seems a bit preposterious that a jury would be debating this topic. I have no alternatives, the concept just seems weird. I guess part of my problem is that if the jury votes to include the statement, how much precedence will that set?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by nwr, posted 10-28-2005 5:41 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by nwr, posted 10-28-2005 6:58 PM bkelly has not replied
 Message 70 by Nighttrain, posted 10-28-2005 10:23 PM bkelly has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6419
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 69 of 110 (255397)
10-28-2005 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by bkelly
10-28-2005 5:53 PM


Re: What topics to debate
From your response, should I infer the trial has been sent to the jury?
That would be reading too much into my comment. As far as I know, evidence is still being presented.
I'm not following this very closely, but I am seeing regular reports on the usenet group talk.origins . I think there are some blogs that give a play by play account.
You have probably seen the reports on Behe admitting that he would have to consider astrology to be science. As best I can tell, the ID proponents are looking pretty silly. However, cases like this are sometimes decided on narrow technical grounds, so that makes it hard to guess what the final outcome will be.

This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 70 of 110 (255434)
10-28-2005 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by bkelly
10-28-2005 5:53 PM


Re: What topics to debate
Hi, BK, The Panda`s Thumb seems to keep a reasonable update
The Panda’s Thumb
AbE: And Mick`s link in Links and Information gives you the whole biz if you`re into heavy reading.
This message has been edited by Nighttrain, 10-28-2005 10:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by bkelly, posted 10-28-2005 5:53 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by bkelly, posted 10-30-2005 3:10 PM Nighttrain has not replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 110 (255656)
10-30-2005 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Nighttrain
10-28-2005 10:23 PM


The unanswered questions
Thanks Nighttrain,
They seem to be off line at the moment, I will try again later.
To continue the main topic a bit, here is some possible food for thought.
As I peruse some of the threads in this forum, frequently there is information to be found in the questions that are not answered. The ToEers jump in and reply to the hard questions. We seledom leave them unanswered. We sometimes even admit to “That’s a good question and we really don’t have a good answer.” However, far more often than not, the questions are answered with evidence, reason and logic.
On the other hand, when faced with difficult questions, the IDers tend to ignore the question and pretend they have earned some credit.
What to other ToEers think about this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Nighttrain, posted 10-28-2005 10:23 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Chiroptera, posted 10-30-2005 3:17 PM bkelly has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 110 (255657)
10-30-2005 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by bkelly
10-30-2005 3:10 PM


Re: The unanswered questions
quote:
On the other hand, when faced with difficult questions, the IDers tend to ignore the question and pretend they have earned some credit.
I think the problem, bkelly, is that those who try to defend ID here don't understand statistics, biology, or even ID. In fact, their understanding of these subjects are so bad that they cannot understand that their arguments are bad, or why; they think their arguments are so good that the only reason we evolutionists aren't persuaded by them is that our minds must be closed.
I don't think the IDists are intentionally pretending. I think that they really believe that they are killing us with their iron-clad logic.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by bkelly, posted 10-30-2005 3:10 PM bkelly has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Nighttrain, posted 10-30-2005 6:48 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 73 of 110 (255678)
10-30-2005 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Chiroptera
10-30-2005 3:17 PM


Re: The unanswered questions
Their iron-clad logic doesn`t seem to extend to the fact that 99+% of species are extinct. So either we have the most incompetent designer in history, or one hell of a sadist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Chiroptera, posted 10-30-2005 3:17 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 113 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 74 of 110 (277470)
01-09-2006 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Nighttrain
10-21-2005 6:44 PM


Re: arrogance and respect
No, it wasn't Kipling or Bill Cosby.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6419
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 75 of 110 (277475)
01-09-2006 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Nighttrain
10-21-2005 6:44 PM


How you play the game
Was it Kipling (or Bill Cosby) who said 'It`s not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game'?
Found with a google lookup.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Nighttrain, posted 10-21-2005 6:44 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Replies to this message:
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