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Member (Idle past 2521 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: For ToErs Eyes Only | |||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Crevo writes: recently I was in a thread with Iano talking about choice ... I felt maybe there should be some etiquette involved if you decide to no longer take part in a discussion. make your reasons clear and bow out. Sorry if I seemed abrupt Crevo. Will endeavor to signal intent and reasons for in future..
we came to a stalemate. FWIW... I felt and expressed we were at stalem8 too. We had gone round in circles a few times so..
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
robin writes: But still, I think that I and others have been a little too contemptuous of somebody's serious religious beliefs at times. You a a long way short of being the worst RR ...but don't take that as licence
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tsig Member (Idle past 2938 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Please expand on this. What does it look like when someone declares their mind to be closed, and what does it mean for a moderator to call them on it? I've had similar thoughts, but I haven't given it "air-time" to think in depth. I'd appreciate your thoughts. Ben Hi Ben It always looks to me like they crawled into a hole and pulled the dirt in behind them, eyes closed, hands over their ears singing la-la-la. When a poster declares that they will cling to their beliefs, regardless of facts, evidence or logic, this is a closed mind and a direct violation of rule four of the ForumGuidelines(4.Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation). The moderator should remind them of this fact and that they agreed to the rules and must now abide by them to remain a member. That’s the easy answer, in the real world it might not be so cut and dried, however, after reading thousands of call and response posts I question the wisdom allowing posters to drone on and on with the same tired arguments.Separating the wheat from the chaff becomes a chore and some of the real scientists that do instead of talk may not consider it worth their time. Is this a debate board, or a sounding board? I know that Percy is the final arbiter, but I couldn’t resist that final flourish.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2938 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Challenging the belief is like challenging their personal qualities. It can go much deeper than that.When someone’ s faith is so entwined with their view of reality that the see the word only thru the eyes of belief, then to challenge that belief is to ask them to do a 180 degree turn and embrace all that they have detested and reject all they have held good. They feel you are asking them to burn the flag and spit in Mom’s apple pie. The response can be violent.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
It is rare that a person's beliefs are a bunch of interchangeable modules that can be individually lifted out and replaced.
As a former fundamentalist, I can attest that often a person's entire set of beliefs are intertwined and interconnected, and one cannot simply change one "small part" of her beliefs without ripping huge holes in everything else. For a Christian literalist, it is not as simple as simply believing that Genesis is literal history and then believing that Genesis is metaphor. To go from one belief to another can be the intellectual and emotional equivalent of a stroke; one is left having to learn how to move all over again. "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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tsig Member (Idle past 2938 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
It is rare that a person's beliefs are a bunch of interchangeable modules that can be individually lifted out and replaced. As a former fundamentalist, I can attest that often a person's entire set of beliefs are intertwined and interconnected, and one cannot simply change one "small part" of her beliefs without ripping huge holes in everything else. For a Christian literalist, it is not as simple as simply believing that Genesis is literal history and then believing that Genesis is metaphor. To go from one belief to another can be the intellectual and emotional equivalent of a stroke; one is left having to learn how to move all over again. Of course, that's why we see the turn logical backflips without a net to keep thier skein of belief intact. Not all reactions are passive; on some of the other fora, the wish to kill is often expressed. Sounds like a real Damscus experience!lol This message has been edited by DHR, 10-20-2005 07:41 PM
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Seeing some people react against clear and indisputable fact does remind me of the Star Trek episode where they blow the brains out of a super computer with the phrase, "This sentence is a lie."
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tsig Member (Idle past 2938 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Seeing some people react against clear and indisputable fact does remind me of the Star Trek episode where they blow the brains out of a super computer with the phrase, "This sentence is a lie." But your facts are merely your interpetation of what you observe, my interpetation of what I observe is differint than yours, so I win. (waves hands, runs away) This message has been edited by AdminJar, 10-20-2005 07:58 PM
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4022 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Close,DHR, but no cigar. You forget the threat of whining to admin.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Is it just me or does debating with anyone with the "godidit" mindset seem a waste of time? We seem to be debating not with the interpretaion of the evidence but with debunking the fundemental mind set of the religous individual.
What I mean to say is that here, we could be seen to be argueing against religious belief, not evidence. To a literalist the evidence is irrelevant. One thread I read yesterday said that no other position other than the inerracy of the bible would be taken. Period. Whats the point talking? Sorry, feeling glum.
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Annafan Member (Idle past 4608 days) Posts: 418 From: Belgium Joined: |
You know, Larni, we are on the same wavelength in a LOT of matters.
I wouldn't dream of entering a discussion in one of the religion forums because it is an utter waste of time IMO.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Is it just me or does debating with anyone with the "godidit" mindset seem a waste of time?
We are not debating to convert the creationists. We are debating to leave a public record for all of the inquisitive people who visit the web site. Some of them are honestly trying to reach a decision. Let's continue to help them.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
I think I have to agree with you there. Living in the UK I'm quite happy to let god bother'ers while away many fruitless hours talking about their god.
I feel aghast though when I see US schools argueing over whether or not to include creation. America could be a far greater source of scientific and human progress if it devoted less energy to religion and more to pushing forwards. Churning out fundies could cause a theocracy. What then? Book burning? Oops, more to say but have to go......
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
Parasomnium writes: You can start out kindly with everyone, but with some people there comes a moment when the kindliness wears thin. Sound game theory, and I agree. When I was lurking here, what most impressed me (aside from Ned's nose), was the degree of civility and calm the evolutionists maintained in the face of remarkably obfuscatory replies. I have previously demonstrated my own difficulty with matching that standard, but I'm working on it. One thing to consider: the person who continually dodges questions and spouts nonsense starts to look like someone recruiting dupes; the person who maintains an unperturbed, reasoning engagement of the evidence starts to look like the possessor of a reasonable position. That is winning. This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 10-21-2005 01:43 PM
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4022 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Was it Kipling (or Bill Cosby) who said 'It`s not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game'?:-p
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