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Author Topic:   For ToErs Eyes Only
iano
Member (Idle past 2018 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 46 of 110 (253335)
10-20-2005 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Heathen
10-18-2005 8:08 PM


Crevo writes:
recently I was in a thread with Iano talking about choice ... I felt maybe there should be some etiquette involved if you decide to no longer take part in a discussion. make your reasons clear and bow out.
Sorry if I seemed abrupt Crevo. Will endeavor to signal intent and reasons for in future..
we came to a stalemate.
FWIW... I felt and expressed we were at stalem8 too. We had gone round in circles a few times so..

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iano
Member (Idle past 2018 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 47 of 110 (253338)
10-20-2005 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by robinrohan
10-19-2005 8:18 PM


Re: arrogance and respect
robin writes:
But still, I think that I and others have been a little too contemptuous of somebody's serious religious beliefs at times.
You a a long way short of being the worst RR ...but don't take that as licence

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2986 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 48 of 110 (253502)
10-20-2005 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Ben!
10-19-2005 6:45 PM


A closed mind can only be opened from within
Please expand on this. What does it look like when someone declares their mind to be closed, and what does it mean for a moderator to call them on it?
I've had similar thoughts, but I haven't given it "air-time" to think in depth. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Ben
Hi Ben
It always looks to me like they crawled into a hole and pulled the dirt in behind them, eyes closed, hands over their ears singing la-la-la.
When a poster declares that they will cling to their beliefs, regardless of facts, evidence or logic, this is a closed mind and a direct violation of rule four of the Forum
Guidelines(4.Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation).
The moderator should remind them of this fact and that they agreed to the rules and must now abide by them to remain a member.
That’s the easy answer, in the real world it might not be so cut and dried, however, after reading thousands of call and response posts I question the wisdom allowing posters to drone on and on with the same tired arguments.Separating the wheat from the chaff becomes a chore and some of the real scientists that do instead of talk may not consider it worth their time.
Is this a debate board, or a sounding board?
I know that Percy is the final arbiter, but I couldn’t resist that final flourish.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2986 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 49 of 110 (253506)
10-20-2005 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Larni
10-19-2005 7:01 AM


Danger, Danger Will Robinson
Challenging the belief is like challenging their personal qualities.
It can go much deeper than that.
When someone’ s faith is so entwined with their view of reality that the see the word only thru the eyes of belief, then to challenge that belief is to ask them to do a 180 degree turn and embrace all that they have detested and reject all they have held good. They feel you are asking them to burn the flag and spit in Mom’s apple pie.
The response can be violent.

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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 110 (253510)
10-20-2005 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by tsig
10-20-2005 7:09 PM


Re: Danger, Danger Will Robinson
It is rare that a person's beliefs are a bunch of interchangeable modules that can be individually lifted out and replaced.
As a former fundamentalist, I can attest that often a person's entire set of beliefs are intertwined and interconnected, and one cannot simply change one "small part" of her beliefs without ripping huge holes in everything else.
For a Christian literalist, it is not as simple as simply believing that Genesis is literal history and then believing that Genesis is metaphor. To go from one belief to another can be the intellectual and emotional equivalent of a stroke; one is left having to learn how to move all over again.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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Replies to this message:
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2986 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 51 of 110 (253519)
10-20-2005 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Chiroptera
10-20-2005 7:18 PM


Re: Danger, Danger Will Robinson
It is rare that a person's beliefs are a bunch of interchangeable modules that can be individually lifted out and replaced.
As a former fundamentalist, I can attest that often a person's entire set of beliefs are intertwined and interconnected, and one cannot simply change one "small part" of her beliefs without ripping huge holes in everything else.
For a Christian literalist, it is not as simple as simply believing that Genesis is literal history and then believing that Genesis is metaphor. To go from one belief to another can be the intellectual and emotional equivalent of a stroke; one is left having to learn how to move all over again.
Of course, that's why we see the turn logical backflips without a net to keep thier skein of belief intact.
Not all reactions are passive; on some of the other fora, the wish to kill is often expressed.
Sounds like a real Damscus experience!lol
This message has been edited by DHR, 10-20-2005 07:41 PM

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 Message 50 by Chiroptera, posted 10-20-2005 7:18 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Chiroptera, posted 10-20-2005 8:36 PM tsig has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 110 (253537)
10-20-2005 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by tsig
10-20-2005 7:40 PM


Re: Danger, Danger Will Robinson
Seeing some people react against clear and indisputable fact does remind me of the Star Trek episode where they blow the brains out of a super computer with the phrase, "This sentence is a lie."

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 Message 51 by tsig, posted 10-20-2005 7:40 PM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2986 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 53 of 110 (253540)
10-20-2005 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Chiroptera
10-20-2005 8:36 PM


Facts, what are facts?
Seeing some people react against clear and indisputable fact does remind me of the Star Trek episode where they blow the brains out of a super computer with the phrase, "This sentence is a lie."
But your facts are merely your interpetation of what you observe, my interpetation of what I observe is differint than yours, so I win. (waves hands, runs away)
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 10-20-2005 07:58 PM

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4071 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 54 of 110 (253602)
10-21-2005 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by tsig
10-20-2005 8:48 PM


Re: Facts, what are facts?
Close,DHR, but no cigar. You forget the threat of whining to admin.

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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 55 of 110 (253609)
10-21-2005 5:26 AM


Is it just me?
Is it just me or does debating with anyone with the "godidit" mindset seem a waste of time? We seem to be debating not with the interpretaion of the evidence but with debunking the fundemental mind set of the religous individual.
What I mean to say is that here, we could be seen to be argueing against religious belief, not evidence. To a literalist the evidence is irrelevant. One thread I read yesterday said that no other position other than the inerracy of the bible would be taken. Period.
Whats the point talking?
Sorry, feeling glum.

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Annafan, posted 10-21-2005 6:24 AM Larni has replied
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Annafan
Member (Idle past 4656 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 56 of 110 (253611)
10-21-2005 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Larni
10-21-2005 5:26 AM


Re: Is it just me?
You know, Larni, we are on the same wavelength in a LOT of matters.
I wouldn't dream of entering a discussion in one of the religion forums because it is an utter waste of time IMO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Larni, posted 10-21-2005 5:26 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6418
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 57 of 110 (253621)
10-21-2005 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Larni
10-21-2005 5:26 AM


Re: Is it just me?
Is it just me or does debating with anyone with the "godidit" mindset seem a waste of time?
We are not debating to convert the creationists. We are debating to leave a public record for all of the inquisitive people who visit the web site. Some of them are honestly trying to reach a decision. Let's continue to help them.

This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 58 of 110 (253641)
10-21-2005 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Annafan
10-21-2005 6:24 AM


Re: Is it just me?
I think I have to agree with you there. Living in the UK I'm quite happy to let god bother'ers while away many fruitless hours talking about their god.
I feel aghast though when I see US schools argueing over whether or not to include creation. America could be a far greater source of scientific and human progress if it devoted less energy to religion and more to pushing forwards.
Churning out fundies could cause a theocracy. What then? Book burning? Oops, more to say but have to go......

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Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 59 of 110 (253703)
10-21-2005 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Parasomnium
10-19-2005 6:06 PM


Re: arrogance and respect
Parasomnium writes:
You can start out kindly with everyone, but with some people there comes a moment when the kindliness wears thin.
Sound game theory, and I agree.
When I was lurking here, what most impressed me (aside from Ned's nose), was the degree of civility and calm the evolutionists maintained in the face of remarkably obfuscatory replies. I have previously demonstrated my own difficulty with matching that standard, but I'm working on it.
One thing to consider: the person who continually dodges questions and spouts nonsense starts to look like someone recruiting dupes; the person who maintains an unperturbed, reasoning engagement of the evidence starts to look like the possessor of a reasonable position.
That is winning.
This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 10-21-2005 01:43 PM

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4071 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 60 of 110 (253838)
10-21-2005 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Omnivorous
10-21-2005 1:42 PM


Re: arrogance and respect
Was it Kipling (or Bill Cosby) who said 'It`s not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game'?:-p

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Omnivorous, posted 10-21-2005 1:42 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
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