Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9173 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,575 Year: 4,832/9,624 Month: 180/427 Week: 93/85 Day: 0/10 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   For ToErs Eyes Only
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1360 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 31 of 110 (252854)
10-18-2005 8:08 PM


I've only been on here a short time but can see the points that are being made, in the few discussions I've had on here I have most certainly come up against the diversionary tactics of creo's on here,
and the blatant ignoring of questions posed.
Like many of the personal discussions I've had with christians, the same stalemate appears again and again. no amount of scientific evidence will overcome faith (or the stubborness associated with it)
THe problem I find is that while refusing scientific evidence to disprove the bible they will willingly (mis)use science to try to disprove evolution.
Personally it is not my wish to destroy anyones faith, but if they come on here and take part in a debate they should expect to have their beliefs challenged rigourously.
One thing springs to mind where in a discussion about the flood and geology a YEC opened with a comment along the lines of..."understand now that any attempt to disprove my belief will not be entertained and i will not take part"
In such a situation I felt a moderator should have stepped in and pointed out that if you are not willing to debate you have no place on a debating forum.
recently I was in a thread with Iano talking about choice we came to a stalemate... i believed there was none (and felt I showed this) iano believed there was(and no doubt felt he showed this). Iano left the debate and moved on.. leaving me hungry for more discussion. Of course internally I saw this a a victory for me.. I'd frightened him off (he would of course disagree) but, I felt maybe there should be some etiquette involved if you decide to no longer take part in a discussion. make your reasons clear and bow out.
On the whole it's not about "winning" or "losing". Reading and taking part in the debates here expand my knowledge and understanding of where both sides are coming from. Unfortunately I would say no creationist would ever say the same.
come on folks... Can't we all be winners?
*group hug**cheesy grin*

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by RAZD, posted 10-18-2005 8:43 PM Heathen has not replied
 Message 36 by tsig, posted 10-19-2005 5:28 PM Heathen has not replied
 Message 46 by iano, posted 10-20-2005 11:08 AM Heathen has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1482 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 32 of 110 (252863)
10-18-2005 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Heathen
10-18-2005 8:08 PM


"just the facts. maam"
Personally it is not my wish to destroy anyones faith, but if they come on here and take part in a debate they should expect to have their beliefs challenged rigourously.
I would qualifiy that to "they should expect to have their beliefs that are contradicted by well known facts to be challenged rigourously."
I have no quarrel with beliefs that fit the facts.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Heathen, posted 10-18-2005 8:08 PM Heathen has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 554 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 33 of 110 (252927)
10-19-2005 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by robinrohan
10-18-2005 12:42 AM


Re: Game Plan
Who are you talking to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by robinrohan, posted 10-18-2005 12:42 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 110 (252929)
10-19-2005 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by robinrohan
10-18-2005 12:42 AM


Re: Game Plan
Good point. I was speaking in general, and I realize that the same could be said on the other side. But I have noted a snobbishness . . .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by robinrohan, posted 10-18-2005 12:42 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 35 of 110 (252953)
10-19-2005 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-15-2005 12:06 AM


Belief
I think one of the problems with talking to believers is that the belief is often (but not always) tied up in the self perception of the individual. Look at at the 'discourse' among scientist with mutally exclusive ideas: it gets pretty heated.
Challenging the belief is like challenging their personal qualities. In my job I can't mention religious beliefs at all! And my job is to look at peoples every day beliefs and perceptions with the intent to alleviate depression and anxiety.
It's very hard to change belief. The spectre of "Yes but......" hoves into view. Being English I'm temped to say "Let them beleive what they like" but when I see George W acting like a religious leader with nukes it puts the fear of god into me.
What can we do? Moderate our discourse, don't go off topic, stick to one concept in a tread, not have 3+ discussions going on. Spot the logical fallicies and point them out and above all don't go round in circles. If the message is not getting across don't waste your time.
Stick to science. I don't think that any creo can stand against the scientific approach. (ok, so thats just my belief)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 10-15-2005 12:06 AM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by tsig, posted 10-20-2005 7:09 PM Larni has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2986 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 36 of 110 (253136)
10-19-2005 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Heathen
10-18-2005 8:08 PM


etiquette
I felt maybe there should be some etiquette involved if you decide to no longer take part in a discussion. make your reasons clear and bow out.
I agree! Leaving someone or many somones hanging is bad form. there are may polite ways to exit.
IMO the creos are by far the worst offenders.
I DO NOT understand why the Mods don't call them when they declare thier closed minds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Heathen, posted 10-18-2005 8:08 PM Heathen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Ben!, posted 10-19-2005 5:31 PM tsig has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1476 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 37 of 110 (253139)
10-19-2005 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by tsig
10-19-2005 5:28 PM


Re: etiquette
I DO NOT understand why the Mods don't call them when they declare thier closed minds.
Please expand on this. What does it look like when someone declares their mind to be closed, and what does it mean for a moderator to call them on it?
I've had similar thoughts, but I haven't given it "air-time" to think in depth. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by tsig, posted 10-19-2005 5:28 PM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by bkelly, posted 10-19-2005 6:28 PM Ben! has replied
 Message 45 by tsig, posted 10-19-2005 8:34 PM Ben! has not replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 110 (253152)
10-19-2005 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by robinrohan
10-18-2005 12:42 AM


arrogance and respect
robinrohan writes:
You might want to be a little less arrogant. You are never going to convince anybody by claiming that you are better than they are.
You might have a little more respect.
Do you feel like some of the participants in this thread are arrogant and disrespectful towards you, or are you trying to help formulate plans of action that will be better received? I read your words but have no confidence that I know your position.
I ask you in return, how do you behave when you show others fact after fact supporting your position while they maintain their position and provide no evidence what-so-ever? The creationist and IDers say nothing but "I believe," and reference books that are obviously flawed. Those who believe have never ever supported their beliefs and call blind faith a respectable and desired characteristic. That is a problem.
You are right about arrogance and respect, but when faced with that kind of stubbornness and idiocy, restricting arrogance and maintaining respect can be extraordinarily difficult.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by robinrohan, posted 10-18-2005 12:42 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Parasomnium, posted 10-19-2005 6:06 PM bkelly has not replied
 Message 43 by robinrohan, posted 10-19-2005 8:18 PM bkelly has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 39 of 110 (253156)
10-19-2005 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by bkelly
10-19-2005 5:58 PM


Re: arrogance and respect
I think it doesn't hurt to treat people like they treat others. Kind people deserve kind treatment, arrogant people deserve arrogant treatment.
You can start out kindly with everyone, but with some people there comes a moment when the kindliness wears thin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by bkelly, posted 10-19-2005 5:58 PM bkelly has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by robinrohan, posted 10-19-2005 8:24 PM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 59 by Omnivorous, posted 10-21-2005 1:42 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 110 (253171)
10-19-2005 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Ben!
10-19-2005 5:31 PM


Re: etiquette
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DHR writes:
I DO NOT understand why the Mods don't call them when they declare thier closed minds.
Ben writes:
Please expand on this. What does it look like when someone declares their mind to be closed, and what does it mean for a moderator to call them on it?
Example: Member T (ToE) states position X. Member B (Believer) objects and claims the ToE has holes and does not account for the beginning of life. Member T and others repeat that the ToE does not address that and counters all points from B. B continues to deny T’s position based on self referencing quotes from his bible. When pressed, B throws up a diatribe of nonsense and claims victory. When B’s response is closely examined, the words are essentially vacuous and do not respond to the points made by T. B continues to claim victory.
Example: B claims that Genesis contains the actual facts of the creation of the universe and the earth, and the bible is the literal word of god. Both have been clearly refuted and B offers absolutely no supportable evidence.
I don’t know your position, but if you agree with B, provide evidence. (in another thread)
However, This is off topic from the original post. The question is: What can the ToEers do about this debate (ToE versus ID) and the refusal of believers to face up to the facts. To debate if the facts are correct, go to other threads. This one is based on the assumption that the facts are correct.
BTW: General question: What is YEC?

Truth fears no question.
bkelly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Ben!, posted 10-19-2005 5:31 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Ben!, posted 10-19-2005 6:45 PM bkelly has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1476 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 41 of 110 (253174)
10-19-2005 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by bkelly
10-19-2005 6:28 PM


Re: etiquette
However, This is off topic from the original post. The question is: What can the ToEers do about this debate (ToE versus ID) and the refusal of believers to face up to the facts.
I'm attempting to address that question by asking DHR if there's something more s/he thinks the admins should be doing in the debate. I have 0 interest in debating E vs. C here.
BTW: General question: What is YEC?
Young Earth Creationist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by bkelly, posted 10-19-2005 6:28 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by bkelly, posted 10-19-2005 7:38 PM Ben! has not replied
 Message 48 by tsig, posted 10-20-2005 7:03 PM Ben! has not replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 110 (253192)
10-19-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Ben!
10-19-2005 6:45 PM


Re: etiquette
Then I misconstrued that aspect of your posts. My appology

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Ben!, posted 10-19-2005 6:45 PM Ben! has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 110 (253201)
10-19-2005 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by bkelly
10-19-2005 5:58 PM


Re: arrogance and respect
Do you feel like some of the participants in this thread are arrogant and disrespectful towards you, or are you trying to help formulate plans of action that will be better received? I read your words but have no confidence that I know your position.
I wasn't talking about me. In fact, I'm one of the disrespectful sometimes, now that I think about it.
I ask you in return, how do you behave when you show others fact after fact supporting your position while they maintain their position and provide no evidence what-so-ever?
I become irritated.
But still, I think that I and others have been a little too contemptuous of somebody's serious religious beliefs at times.
Something else that I have noticed is that people tend to jump to conclusions about someone's basic beliefs. Now that has happened to me many times, but then I like to jump around and play with different ideas.
One more point: a poster might sound mighty ignorant about one topic, but that doesn't mean they are ignorant about everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by bkelly, posted 10-19-2005 5:58 PM bkelly has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by iano, posted 10-20-2005 11:14 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 110 (253202)
10-19-2005 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Parasomnium
10-19-2005 6:06 PM


Re: arrogance and respect
You can start out kindly with everyone, but with some people there comes a moment when the kindliness wears thin.
Oh sure. Sometimes one wants to get 'em good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Parasomnium, posted 10-19-2005 6:06 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2986 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 45 of 110 (253205)
10-19-2005 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Ben!
10-19-2005 5:31 PM


Re: etiquette
Please expand on this. What does it look like when someone declares their mind to be closed, and what does it mean for a moderator to call them on it?
I've had similar thoughts, but I haven't given it "air-time" to think in depth. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Just saw this; baseball playoff starting so I will have a reply later.
Thanks!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Ben!, posted 10-19-2005 5:31 PM Ben! has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024