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tsig
Member (Idle past 2992 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 16 of 110 (252198)
10-16-2005 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Chiroptera
10-16-2005 2:25 PM


Re:Bigfeet
Bigfoot is plausible.
There is physical evidence (dubious as it may be) for bigfoot.
You can't just have a Bigfoot, you have to have a whole species. Why don't the true believers just use some thermal scanners and provide evidence.
For further discussion how about a topic " Are there Bigfeet?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Chiroptera, posted 10-16-2005 2:25 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Nuggin, posted 10-16-2005 11:06 PM tsig has replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2992 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 17 of 110 (252199)
10-16-2005 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Nuggin
10-16-2005 2:21 PM


Bigfeet
see reply to C.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Nuggin, posted 10-16-2005 2:21 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9006
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 18 of 110 (252203)
10-16-2005 2:50 PM


Scientific Creationism vs Faith
We seem to be getting a lot off topic, let me see if I can bring 'er around.
We have individuals here like Faith who have agreed that they have nothing to say regarding any science and don't expect their beliefs to be taught in any science classes. There is no use, need or value in discussing anything with those who honestly hold to this view. That is not what this forum is, at it's core, about.
The real issue that must be discussed and attacked is that of so-called scientific creationism. The adherents of which are of a weaker faith and seem to need physical evidence to support. They claim they have scientific support for their views and want them taught in the science classroom.
The approach should be to take them at their word. To discuss it based on the evidence and reasoning brought forth.
However, this requires some very basic conceptual work. The smarter of these neo-creationists have begun to realize that they can not, in fact, win at that game. Instead they are trying to redefine the game by weakening science as an intellectual discipline. By trying to redefine it to remove some of the constraints; for example the base of evidence or of falsification.
To my mind the approach there is to ask about how this new method of examining the physical world will actually work. We get a lot of fluff about how science isn't the only way to learn about the world but when asked for an alternative we get nothing in reply.

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 110 (252235)
10-16-2005 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-15-2005 12:06 AM


Why bother? What can we do?
Well Darn. I have been working up a new thread post and find you have beat me to it. Instead of leaping out on my own with very similiar thread, I will join you.
Why bother! What can we do?
In this forum and uncountable other venues we find debates of evolution versus religion. In all cases, the believers fail to make a case supporting any deity. Yet that cannot find the courage to admit their error. This thread is predicated on the position that this condition is real and that this condition is dangerous.
Part 1: Why should we bother?
This is a rhetorical question as I provide my answer, but its purpose is a lead in to part 2. I feel I provided an answer but certainly not “the” answer. Please consider the question open for further discussion.
Sam Harris, The End of Faith writes:
It is time we recognized that belief is not a private matter; it has never been merely private. In fact, beliefs are scarcely more private than actions are, for every belief is a fount of action in potential . .As a man believes, so he will act. Believe that you are the member of a chosen people, awash in the salacious exports of an evil culture that is turning your children away from God, believe that you will be rewarded with an eternity of unimaginable delights by dealing death to these infidels --- and flying a plane into a building is scarcely more that a matter of being asked to do so. It follows then, that certain beliefs are intrinsically dangerous. (Italics from author)
Muslims are told that Seventy-two virgins await the martyr in heaven. What do those 72 virgins think about their fate? We are talking eternity here, 72 virgins will not last long. What happens when each virgin is no longer a virgin? Is she now useless? What utter crap. But the martyr’s actions are based on this belief and others that are just as preposterous. This is a problem.
A mild example of an intrinsically dangerous belief is that when the pope speaks ex cathreda (from the chair) he is infallible. (Never mind that this has been proven wrong time and time again.) When the pope speaks, people believe, and people act. And they cannot be convinced that their behavior is wrong. This is a problem.
Consider some current events. The pope says that birth control is wrong and to deny sex to one’s husband because you already have too many children is wrong. These beliefs are a fundamental cause of overpopulation. They and others reduce or eliminate effective AIDS prevention. Current belief is causing great harm. These beliefs are dangerous.
Sam Harris writes:
Nothing that a Christian and a Muslim can say to each other will render their beliefs mutually vulnerable to discourse, because the very tenets of their faith have immunized them against the power of conversation. Believing strongly, without evidence, they have kicked themselves loose of the world.
Unfortunately, they have not kicked themselves loose of control. They are not in touch with reality but demand control of the world. For the most part, they do have that control. This is a problem.
They also demand, that is to say with emphasis, DEMAND, that no one but believers are allowed to have political power. This is a problem.
Sam Harris writes:
Many Muslims for instance, are convinced that God takes an active interest in women’s clothing . . Should Muslims really be free to believe that the Creator of the universe is concerned about hemlines.
Hemlines is just one manifestation of this fundamental belief. Two examples. Muslims rioted and killed over two hundred people because a Miss World Pageant might be held in Nigeria. There were intentional murders, in the name of Allah, because some women would wear a bikini. In another case in Mecca, fourteen girls were burned to death in a fire because they were not wearing the right head dress and could not be allowed out. Paramedics and fire fighters could no be allowed to see the girls in this condition. These beliefs are a problem.
Christianity is no better. Although to a large degree they are held in check now, review the Crusades, the Inquisitions, Malleus Maleficarum, and on and on. All because “they believe.” This is a problem.
Some Muslim leaders have issued fatwas instructing their believers that it is not only good to set off a nuclear weapon in our country, but Allah wants this to happen. Its in the works.
I wonder what devastation would have ensued if Christians of 1000 to 1500 years ago had possessed nuclear weapons.
I may be said to have gone overboard here, but I ask the reader to understand that these few words have not even scratched the surface of all the evidence that supports my position.
The case has been made, further discussion is solicited.
Part 2: This is the important part: What can we do?
Making the case that religious believes are dangerous and are a problem is easy. The question of what to do is more difficult.
Sam Harris writes:
Of course, one senses that the problem is simply hopeless. What could possibly cause billions of human beings to reconsider their religious beliefs? And yet, it is obvious that an utter revolution in our thinking could be accomplished in a single generation: if parents and teachers would merely give honest answers to the questions of every child.
But of course, that will never happen. I wish I could quote again from Mr. Harris with a proposed solution, but I cannot.
As I noted earlier, debates and forums do not seem to accomplish much. The believers will cite the bible as proof that the bible right. They will look facts in the face and either pretend the facts are not there, ignore them, or dismiss them with “I believe and that’s good enough.”
The problem is greatly magnified by the fact that the majority of businesses and government are in control of believers. Most of us working people are rightfully concerned that to publicly crusade against religions beliefs will be devastating to our lives.
One start is to be a bright. The Brights' Net - Who are The Brights? I saw a suggestion that a group of brights might be called a constellation of brights. I like the name and the idea. I don’t know how to start one, but am looking into it. Can you help?
But that really doesn’t do much. I want to do more, but I do have a fear that taking public action may well be cutting my own throat. However, not doing anything may be worse.
What do you do? Do you have any suggestions?

Truth fears no question.
bkelly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 10-15-2005 12:06 AM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Nighttrain, posted 10-16-2005 11:50 PM bkelly has not replied
 Message 22 by Ben!, posted 10-17-2005 12:10 AM bkelly has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2576 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 20 of 110 (252295)
10-16-2005 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by tsig
10-16-2005 2:38 PM


Re: Re:Bigfeet
Sounds like a good topic to me!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by tsig, posted 10-16-2005 2:38 PM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by tsig, posted 10-17-2005 12:19 AM Nuggin has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4077 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 21 of 110 (252301)
10-16-2005 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by bkelly
10-16-2005 5:03 PM


Re: Why bother? What can we do?
Well done,BK. Of course, the scenario gets a lot scarier than that. In the past, the damage one deranged individual could do was limited by the weapons available. Now, thanks to the madness of atheists as well, Biopreparat developed (and may be still working on) melding viruses to be incurable. Thousands of scientists worked in the program with brains on hold, comforting themselves that it was for the glory of the Motherland. With widespread unemployment and poverty in the ex-USSR, who knows who might be tempted to barter their knowledge to extremists (of all persuasions). Never mind that the survival rate of mankind might be in the balance, let`s get the cash and pretend it won`t affect home sweet home. What the buyer does with the product is of no concern. Not a credible scenario? Tell that to the U.S. inspection teams who examined the Russian labs and found buyers had been there previous to their visits.

This message is a reply to:
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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1482 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 22 of 110 (252304)
10-17-2005 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by bkelly
10-16-2005 5:03 PM


Re: Why bother? What can we do?
bkelly,
You made a case about why religion is bad. But you didn't address the question of why religion is good. Seems to me that we better understand what religion is good for before we seriously consider "what to do about it."
Maybe it would be useful to open a thread about the utility of religion at an individual and social level.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by bkelly, posted 10-16-2005 5:03 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 10-17-2005 12:35 AM Ben! has not replied
 Message 25 by bkelly, posted 10-17-2005 9:14 PM Ben! has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2992 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 23 of 110 (252305)
10-17-2005 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Nuggin
10-16-2005 11:06 PM


Re: Re:Bigfeet
Sounds like a good topic to me!
Toss it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Nuggin, posted 10-16-2005 11:06 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9006
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 24 of 110 (252307)
10-17-2005 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Ben!
10-17-2005 12:10 AM


The topic isn't religion
The topic isn't religion (though it is to some individuals).
While religion of a certain kind underlays the problem with the teaching and acceptance of evolutionary biology, religion in general isn't the problem. And if someone suggests a strategy that is based on eliminating all religious thinking then I think they have a mistaken view of the situation.
The problem is to tackle, with a reasonably tight focus those who use, and more, misuse religion in a political fight.

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 Message 22 by Ben!, posted 10-17-2005 12:10 AM Ben! has not replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 110 (252521)
10-17-2005 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Ben!
10-17-2005 12:10 AM


Re: Why bother? What can we do?
Hello Ben,
I appreciate your thoughts, but that is not what I am searching for in this thread.
Compare the demonstrable bad of religion with the good. The bad outweighs the good with a monsterous ration. But that is not the topic that Nuggin started.
(Note: I do not speak for Nuggin, just myself)
The religious folks do two things. First, when they argue about ToE and ID, they parrot their crap and ignore the facts before them. Is there anything we can do to get through to them? Is that truely an impossible task?
Second, following from the first, they continue to cram their religion down every throat they can without regard to the horrible results brought about by religion. They do not respect the rights of other beliefs.
What can we do about that?
If you are strongly religious, then you probably find the question itself a bit insulting. That is understandable. If you want to discuss the good of religion, there are plenty of places. This is not one of them.
With Nuggin's approval (question not statement) there are two questions, one explicit (his) and one implicit (mine).
1. What can we do about the believers that argue ad-nauseum without justification? (This can be reworded as: Is it possible to teach them the truth?)
2. What can we do to hold back the evil that they cause?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Ben!, posted 10-17-2005 12:10 AM Ben! has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2005 9:18 PM bkelly has replied
 Message 28 by coffee_addict, posted 10-17-2005 11:58 PM bkelly has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 110 (252524)
10-17-2005 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by bkelly
10-17-2005 9:14 PM


Re: Why bother? What can we do?
2. What can we do to hold back the evil that they cause?
um, don't elect them president?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by bkelly, posted 10-17-2005 9:14 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by bkelly, posted 10-17-2005 9:41 PM RAZD has replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 110 (252534)
10-17-2005 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by RAZD
10-17-2005 9:18 PM


Re: Why bother? What can we do?
You have me laughing and crying at the same time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2005 9:18 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 10-18-2005 6:47 PM bkelly has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 560 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 28 of 110 (252556)
10-17-2005 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by bkelly
10-17-2005 9:14 PM


Re: Why bother? What can we do?
Already, they are setting up camps on our campus. Looks like they're going to preach their hate again tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by bkelly, posted 10-17-2005 9:14 PM bkelly has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 110 (252561)
10-18-2005 12:42 AM


Game Plan
You might want to be a little less arrogant. You are never going to convince anybody by claiming that you are better than they are.
You might have a little more respect.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 10-17-2005 11:42 PM

Replies to this message:
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 Message 34 by robinrohan, posted 10-19-2005 12:59 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 38 by bkelly, posted 10-19-2005 5:58 PM robinrohan has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 30 of 110 (252847)
10-18-2005 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by bkelly
10-17-2005 9:41 PM


Re: Why bother? What can we do?
Things you can do:
voluteer to help tutor science classes at basic levels. teach logic and sound reasoning.
go to PTA\schoolboard meetings and be a voice for science.
get involved with "odyssey of the mind" competitions as a coach.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by bkelly, posted 10-17-2005 9:41 PM bkelly has not replied

  
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