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Author Topic:   For ToErs Eyes Only
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2570 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 1 of 110 (251891)
10-15-2005 12:06 AM


Hey guys,
We need to have a little pow-wow about strategy.
I've been tooling around the boards, and I keep seeing the same patterns occuring again and again.
Basically, we (the ToErs) end up playing nothing be defense.
Here's a scenario -
ToEr - Do you have any evidence in favor of your theory?
Creationist / IDr - If monkeys turned into men, why are there still monkeys?
ToEr - Well, there are a number of problems with that question. Here's all the answers (...data follows)
C/IDr - Oh yeah, well Archie was just a bird.
ToEr - Data
C/IDr - The Bible is fact.
ToEr - Data.
C/IDr - Evolution is the devil.
And on and on.
Notice we start by asking a question. That question is completely ignored, and instead a different and irrelevent question is asked. We answer. Repeat.
It's easy to fall into the trap. I have fallen in hundreds of times and I haven't been here that long. We fall in because people are asking us questions that we have the answers for, so we want to answer them.
The problem is this -
For Creationists / IDrs simply asking the questions = scoring points.
They don't care about the answers. They don't understand the answers. Hell, they don't understand the questions.
Think of the debate not as a scientific discussion, but as the audience at Jerry Springer. The Creationist grabs the mic and says "I ain't birthed on account of no monkey" (ie "You're fat ass needs to find yerself a job"). The rest of the audience cheers.
Notice that on Jerry Springer, there is no answer to these statements. Simply making the statement is enough.
I'm not saying we need to sink to their level. But what choices are we left with?
Have we converted anyone here?
Have we ever actually "won" a debate? Not by our standards, but by theirs?
In one of my threads, Iano said something to the effect of "if you could show me that there we downy feathers before flight feathers, that'd be a big step for me towards believing evolution."
I supply links. His reply "Oh, those aren't downy feathers, those are just downy-like feathers."
Obviously defense is never gonna get us there. So, what's our game plan?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 10-15-2005 11:38 PM Nuggin has not replied
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 10-15-2005 11:51 PM Nuggin has not replied
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 10-15-2005 11:57 PM Nuggin has not replied
 Message 7 by Nighttrain, posted 10-16-2005 1:09 AM Nuggin has not replied
 Message 9 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-16-2005 5:22 AM Nuggin has not replied
 Message 13 by tsig, posted 10-16-2005 7:54 AM Nuggin has replied
 Message 19 by bkelly, posted 10-16-2005 5:03 PM Nuggin has not replied
 Message 35 by Larni, posted 10-19-2005 7:01 AM Nuggin has not replied
 Message 65 by bkelly, posted 10-28-2005 5:33 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 110 (252082)
10-15-2005 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-15-2005 12:06 AM


misc I guess
I'll move this there

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 10-15-2005 12:06 AM Nuggin has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 3 of 110 (252083)
10-15-2005 11:38 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1482 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4 of 110 (252086)
10-15-2005 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-15-2005 12:06 AM


columns
So, what's our game plan?
um, to wait for the botch administration to self destruct?
One of the tenents of good debate and honest discussion is tolerance of alternate ideas, imho, and going on the attack on someone's personal beliefs tends to invalidate that.
So we are mostly left with attacking concepts on the basis of evidence and holding those who do not play by the rules to the fire foot first, as much as possible.
BUT
We can also present articles on the validity of science, make a clear case for science in certain specific aspects - something like the columnist forum that Ben is working on reviving with my modest effort on the possibilities for abiogenesis on earth and elsewhere in the universe, or Mamuthus' article on sloths.
I would like to see a good article on the descent of man from a common ancestor, include neanders, chimps, DNA info, fossils, the woiks. Maybe start by addressing the "why are monkeys still around" as an intro. Perhaps co-authored by a couple of the folks here instead of just one.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 10*15*2005 11:51 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 10-15-2005 12:06 AM Nuggin has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6418
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 5 of 110 (252087)
10-15-2005 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-15-2005 12:06 AM


Firstly, I agree that the debate is mostly for the audience (i.e. the lurkers). Most creationists who post here won't change their mind. But check the recent posts of mike_the_wiz for an exception.
On the whole we have little choice but to present science, confront creationists with evidence, and remain polite. Otherwise we will be seen as losers.
Maybe some folk who know enough to do so, could compile a list of medical treatments and drugs that come from research based on evolutionary biology. But we have to be careful not to exagerate in presenting such a list.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 10-15-2005 12:06 AM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 8 by coffee_addict, posted 10-16-2005 1:39 AM nwr has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1482 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 6 of 110 (252089)
10-16-2005 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
10-15-2005 11:57 PM


it's an astrological sign!
cancer treatment. mutations, adaptation, it has it all. oh, and survival common now for many forms that were once deadly.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4071 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 7 of 110 (252094)
10-16-2005 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-15-2005 12:06 AM


On guard
Have we converted anyone here?
Have we ever actually "won" a debate? Not by our standards, but by theirs
The thing is, Nug, that just as Atho/Evos develop a baloney detector, so do fundies acquire a sentinel----'Warning, Warning, Will Robinson. Fact approaching' which gives them time to alter tack. Think of it as a farce shield.:-p (with apologies to Capt. Kirk)

This message is a reply to:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 554 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 8 of 110 (252096)
10-16-2005 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
10-15-2005 11:57 PM


Mike the wiz is back? Since when? Right before his supposed permanent suspension, he was well on his way to becoming the ideal creationist. Has he changed?

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Replies to this message:
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Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 110 (252100)
10-16-2005 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-15-2005 12:06 AM


Nuggin writes:
In one of my threads, Iano said something to the effect of "if you could show me that there we downy feathers before flight feathers, that'd be a big step for me towards believing evolution."
I supply links. His reply "Oh, those aren't downy feathers, those are just downy-like feathers."
In these situations, it's a good idea to ask the creationist to define exactly what they're looking before you give it to them. For example, see what Yaro does here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 10-15-2005 12:06 AM Nuggin has not replied

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 554 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 10 of 110 (252104)
10-16-2005 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Funkaloyd
10-16-2005 5:22 AM


Yeah, but read the response to that post here. You honestly think that guy was sane enough to communicate coherently with the rest of us?

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1482 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 11 of 110 (252119)
10-16-2005 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by coffee_addict
10-16-2005 1:39 AM


not only is mike back, check POTM!

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by coffee_addict, posted 10-16-2005 1:39 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1482 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 110 (252121)
10-16-2005 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by coffee_addict
10-16-2005 5:53 AM


that's because he's already detected that fossils are evidence against his world view and must be denied, can't deny just the ones that are a problem, therefore must deny all.
it's a typical shut-down systems approach when the individuals nonsense meter pegs.
(I like the "warning will robinson" analogy too)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by coffee_addict, posted 10-16-2005 5:53 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2986 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 13 of 110 (252123)
10-16-2005 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-15-2005 12:06 AM


Laughing
Obviously defense is never gonna get us there. So, what's our game plan?
Have you ever considered the difference between the belief in bigfoot and the belief in god?
This message has been edited by DHR, 10-16-2005 08:00 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Nuggin, posted 10-16-2005 2:21 PM tsig has replied
 Message 15 by Chiroptera, posted 10-16-2005 2:25 PM tsig has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2570 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 14 of 110 (252190)
10-16-2005 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by tsig
10-16-2005 7:54 AM


Re: Laughing
hehe
well I don't know if this is what you are going for, but...
I believe in Bigfoot

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 110 (252191)
10-16-2005 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by tsig
10-16-2005 7:54 AM


Re: Laughing
Bigfoot is plausible.
There is physical evidence (dubious as it may be) for bigfoot.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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