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Author Topic:   Do animals have souls?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 14 of 303 (294593)
03-12-2006 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by LudoRephaim
03-12-2006 4:12 PM


I feel that animals have souls too because of my personal connection with some, and I hope they do, but scripture says somewhere that the spirit of man goes up to God while the spirit of animals goes down into the earth, which is at least one place I think the idea comes from that animals don't have souls. I can't find that quote though.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 303 (295016)
03-13-2006 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Heathen
03-13-2006 6:42 PM


It looks to me like someone asking a question about who knows these spirits but not asking whether they know where the spirit goes but simply if they know the spirit of man and the spirit of animals -- really rhetorically stating that these spirits cannot be known, so it's not asking anything.
It's like saying Who knows the wind that bloweth where it listeth, and the water that flows downward to the sea. Not questioning the direction, simply saying that in essence these things are unknowable.
In the process of saying that, the spirit of animals has been DEFINED as going downward into the earth, just as the water has been defined as flowing to the sea.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-13-2006 07:58 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 303 (295223)
03-14-2006 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by LudoRephaim
03-13-2006 11:42 PM


Checking the various translations I see that you are right that many of them do translate it with "whether" or "if" or imply that meaning. Checking the Hebrew, however, doesn't SEEM to bear out that translation.
HOWEVER, since I once had a little cat I was particularly close to, that was especially devoted to me, I think because I took extraordinary measures to save her from distemper, I'd love to meet her again -- many other pets too but she was special. The raccoon I rescued too, she'd be fun to meet again. I think I'll just leave it for a surprise though.
Actually I do have fond fantasies of getting to pet lions and tigers and bears in the next world. I hope that's possible.
Anyway, here are the references I dug up:
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
For who can prove that the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward into the earth?
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust
NKJV-Ecc 3:21- Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson
NASB-Ecc 3:21- Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation
RSV-Ecc 3:21- Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.
Webster-Ecc 3:21- Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info
Young-Ecc 3:21- Who knoweth the spirit of the sons of man that is going up on high, and the spirit of the beast that is going down below to the earth?
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info
Darby-Ecc 3:21- Who knoweth the spirit of the children of men? Doth it go upwards? and the spirit of the beasts, doth it go downwards to the earth?
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info
ASV-Ecc 3:21- Who knoweth the spirit of man, whether it goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast, whether it goeth downward to the earth?
American Standard Version 1901 Info
HNV-Ecc 3:21- Who knows the spirit of man, whether it goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, whether it goes downward to the eretz?"
And the original language source:
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
If the above link doesn't work, find the verse, Ecc 3:21 at Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
and click on "C" for "Concordance" in the blocks of letters to the left of it for the Hebrew and Greek Septuagint originals. There is nothing in the Hebrew that I see that implies an "if " or a "whether".
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-14-2006 12:17 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 166 of 303 (325171)
06-23-2006 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-22-2006 1:40 PM


rape?
Rape happens all the time in all species.
Huh? Females take care of themselves against predatory males just fine in most species I'm aware of. Give them a good swat across the puss if necessary, fangs, claws and all. Also there is not even any sexual possibility until the animal is in heat. What are you talking about?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 167 of 303 (325173)
06-23-2006 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-22-2006 1:40 PM


rape?
Rape happens all the time in all species.
Huh? Females take care of themselves against predatory males just fine in most species I'm aware of. Give them a good swat across the puss if necessary, fangs, claws and all. Also there is not even any sexual possibility until the animal is in heat. What are you talking about?
But I just happened to blunder into this conversation and saw that statement so if I'm out of context, sorry.

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