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Author | Topic: Do animals have souls? | |||||||||||||||||||
kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
Plants i'm not so sure, since they dont have the "Breath of life" like humans and animals do, which is believed by some to be "soul"
What about marine moluscs such as hydrozoa and scyphozoa?In hydrozoa the polyp (plant like) stage is dominant, but in scyphozoa the medusa (jellyfish) stage is dominant. They both exhibit 'plant like' and 'animal like' behavior, so are they animals or plants? Do they have a soul?
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
As far as essence is concerned: what makes us human? What are the necessary things to be present for a human being to be a human being? This is what essence is.
-Another human -What ever it is that we recognize in a human. If you saw a hairless, large headed, two arm, two leg, two eye, wearing clothes - what would you think it to be? It might be a human or it might be a hairless circus monkey. My point is that there is no determining factor of what a human is apart from what we decide the farctor should be. The factor could also change regardless of whether the human changed or not - in short, defining a human or a dog or a cat is ultimatly arrbitrary.
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
HUMANS ARE NOT MONKEYS
I'm not saying that they are - but I can only say that because I have a scientific (matterialistic) way of differentiating them.
even if you are playing a trick dresing a monkey up like one
If you were a child that didnt know the difference between them, then yes, I can. How would you tell the difference?
You cannot possibly say that the difference between humans and monkeys is only a difference that we make.
The words 'humans' and 'monkeys' are man-made words, agreed?If I were to call all humans - 'Bloits', would that make all the formerly catagorized humans, Bloits? Yes it would. It's like saying there's absolutly no difference between a human being and a rock.
If you cant tell the difference between them then no.
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
So how about I treat a human like an inanimate object then? How about I torture an animal if there's no difference between it and a rock? Because there is a difference.
How do you know, beyond material perception, that there is a difference? How can you test this?
The actual auditory and visual symbols that are the words "human" and "monkey" are. The concepts, however are not human inventions.
Very good. Now how would you say that we differentiate, apart from sensory perception, these concepts - how can we measure the immeasurable:
possibly -- not definitly -- but possibly an immaterial reality - immeasurable so it confounds us
The qustions scientists ask themselves is not if 'there realy is something (like a human)', but 'how can we prove (tentatively) that there is'. Saying that there is "possibly an immaterial reality" without being able to measure it is unscientific. You can just replace the word "immaterial reality" with "flying pigs".
No, because it's objectivly not the same thing (if it is, go ahead...drink some tar).
There is no such thing as objectivity ('competely', I think you meant), but only a subjective perception of sensual information. After all, the only thing doing any cognitive work here is your brain, how is that not subjective?
No, because it's objectivly not the same thing (if it is, go ahead...drink some tar). Further if two monkeys reproduce will they make a lizard? No, obviously not. Then they must objectivly be different realities - not dependent on my recognizing them different.
Whaaaaat?
It doesn't matter if you cannot tell the difference between them, there still is a difference. They have independant existences from each other, and different properties - so they are different things.
Once again, you can only see that because you preceve their differences by your senses. What else is there (perception)?
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
Heh, I think that humans have reached the limits of what can be measured.
I wouldnt be so sure - alot of new sciences are being developed, I suspect we will be able to measure more things in the future.
And when one goes down to the nitty gritty of what makes up our reality we leave the realm of material and enter the realm of flying pigs. lol
Elevated pork are also material subctances. The main thing to remember here is that we dont if there are immaterial things, about immaterial things (if you suggest they exist) and any way to test those things. Therefore, immateriality is a hypothesis without merit.
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
If we remove this silly self centered bias it makes good sense that all living things have a sense of "being" In "being", do you mean self conscience? If so, that has been disproven. (If you need evidence just say so)
Of course as I see it one does not have a soul. One is the soul which resides within the husk. What do you mean by "one"? (and dont say that "one" is the soul because that is curcular reasoning{soul = one--->soul}
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
Really? Yes, not all living things have a sence of self conscience.
I meant exactly what I said. Who are "you"? first of all, you didnt write "you" you wrote "one".second, when you ask "who..." you are looking for identification, not definition. I think you mean "what are 'you'" - that makes the question easy: 1. I'm a man (male). 2. I'm a human. 3. I'm a collective of nuerons (causing conscience). exc. I have no indication of anything that is reffered to as "soul".
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
No person on earth has any idea of what conciousness is. actualy I said:In "being", do you mean self conscience? If so, that has been disproven. (If you need evidence just say so)
Yes, not all living things have a sence of self conscience.
{bold mine} MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos
Your definition of it is meaningless and quite limited being based only from the human perspective. Do you know of other perspectives - that are not human?
You are a litoralist then. One who sees no meaning, Only rules. You will walk through life and forever miss the point. You mean that a critical investigation of the world around me that resides only on evidence will cause me to 'miss the point'? That's interesting. The word 'meanind' implies intent, an inteligence - therefore there doesnt have to be a meaning to anything if there is no perpose or inteligence. Meaning Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Black people were niggers until people with this type of ignorance opened thier eyes. really, because I've heard that the justifications were quite different ('black people are inferior' and all that nonsense) and were deeply rooted in religion.
An intellectual indifference that has no spiritual ballance. 'spiritual ballance'? care to elaborate on that?
A lot of that foolishness resides on here. what do you mean 'on here'?
The long "logical" webs people will weave to justify this basic point of view on things never ceases to amaze me. can you give an example?
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
How long did the sun revolve around the earth? We are undoubtedly not the center of everything. I asked you for a perspective that is not human and you say that we are not the center of everything? that doesnt say anything except that you cant answer the question.I didnt say that we are the center of everything - we are just the only ones with an inteligent perspective. Just because and animal is a "dork" and does not recognise itself in a mirror hardly means it is not self aware. Thats not what the article says - maybe you should finish reading it.
Your view of the world around you reflects what is within. Is this what is within you? Obviously my perspective of the world reflects my perseption , but what does that have to do with what I said - and can you be a little less vague ('what is within').
Religions have nothing to do with prejudice. Religions are based on faith - 'firm belief in something for which there is no proof' Faith Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webstertherefore as long as our perseption of the world continues to change, religion must lead to prejudice. That is an aspect of our human character. Religion or prejudice?
One that is repeated in many circles and stems from the same core motivations. You have to stop being vague - if you say 'core motivations' - you have to specify what thay are.
Animals only act on insticnt right? What? (scraches his head in curiosity)
A scientific/factual view of the world is no different than a litoral view of a religious text. Except that it provides evidence. (Its a small difference - I know)
The facts are meaningless. Obviously thay are to you.
The percieved intent is all that matters. Whos intent?
It is a reflection of what is in you. More vague remarks?
Perspectives shape things and the one you are representing is quite empty. Amazing! - this is even more vague then the last sentence.
You are one I am one of these - The long "logical" webs people will weave to justify this basic point of view... ????????
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
There is no definitive test for self awareness nor is there a clear cut scientific definition of what it is.
Mirror test - Wikipedia
I read the article. It is utter nonsense. The "results" are completely open to interpretation and indicate nothing except what one might read into them.
For someone to sight this as evidence of a clear lack of self awareness is very unscientific and absurd. Assertions.
When you come down to a definitive answer for what you are you will scientifically have to answer that you do not know. It will be no less vague That is despite the fact that it cant be any more vague.(1) Science does not 'come to a difinitive answer'; everything in science is tentative - from the very nature of our perspective being limited (physicaly). (2) You have to show why you think this is true - that is what scientists do - in order to have a logical conection between the hypothetical situation you proposed and your conclusion of what will have to happen. Living life is based on faith. You dont have to beleive in life in order to live it - therefore it requires nighther knowledge nor faith.
Religion has nothing to do with it. Religion is based on faith by definition : Religion Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Since there is no definitive scientific proof of what we are you must have faith in the existance of the undefinable to have this conversation. (1) Science does not 'come to a difinitive answer'; everything in science is tentative - from the very nature of our perspective being limited (physicaly).(2)I dont have to have faith, only tentative knowledge of things I can define - and the perpose of a conversation is not to rehearse "difinitive truthes" (not that they exist) - that would be pointless - its purpose is to explore the things we dont know about. It is that simple. You mean simplistic.
The mechanics of the world are meaningless. All scientific evidence lies in the mechanics. All things meaningful come from beyond what science can touch. It is the wrong tool for the job. Assertions - please explaine the sentences and the logic behind them.
It comes down to what you believe as to whether animals have souls or not. I see nothing compelling from your posts so far to sway my view. Maybe the fact that you cant test or falsify the existance of a soul is enough to persuade you (seeing as how the soul is 'out of the realm of science') - or maybe you can try to prove it to me.If you cant prove it or falsify it - the soul is not a default hypotheisis (it could be elves running your body) - then you must abandon the hypotheisis. We simply disagree on this philosophical point. That has nothing to do with it. Occham's razor takes care of the soul hypotheisis, thats about it. I dont have to bring opposing evidence because nothing has been proven to the contrary.
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
Why of course. I am asserting my opinion as you are. You simply do not share mine. No, I dont share your opinion - I just happen to have evidence for mine - unlike yourself.
It is you you has limited yor perspective to a belief in a doctrine that is tentative at best. That is your choice. Are you saying that your belief is 100% true - if so then you, logicaly, must be wrong. I'll explain - lets say you had all the evidence in the world pointing towards your opinion. Because:(1) In order to 100% prove your point you would have to falsify all other possible scenarios. (2) There are an infinite number of scenarios then the chances of you proving you opinion become the limit of 1 over x when x goes to infinity, and that equals zero. Now lets say you had no evidence (how familiar) - then then the probability density function of proving your opinion 100% is a continuous one, and so P(X=whatever your opinion is)=0%. In short, if you have no evidence and want to prove something or if you want to prove something to 100% - you will have to wait a long time indeed. Concerning the nature of what we are discussing science has no answers. Anything you have thus cited as evidence is based soley upon opinion. Do you consider the results of an experiment an opinion.(of course the interpitation of those results is an opinion - but they have to corrilate with the results over and over again (like the song...)
Firstly this completely depends upon your definition of living. Mechanically or spiritualy Secondly we hear people from time to time state that life is just not worth living based upon a spiritual or completely non scientific point of view. This will often lead one to leave life prematurely by choice. Huh? are you just typing random words?
The "purpose" of a conversation is not limited to your point of view. Of course not - there is evidence, althogh the interpitation of this is an opinion, it still limits the conversation.Unless you have something other than opinion in a conversation? (I want an answer to this one). We ask the ultimate why. which is...?
Tell me scientifically the reason or reasons why life for you is worth living. 'why' and 'reason' imply intent - the only intent here is mine and so life is worth living for whatever reasons I decide.
Show me the meaning of your life. same as before only that 'meaning' impies intent.
The term soul describes that which science cannot define. and yet you somehow can?!?!?
Scientifically you must deny your existance. no, scientifically I must deny the soul.
I not only accept my existance but embrace it with meaning. pointless - no basis.
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
Yet all that we do comes from a place or thing we cannot observe. If you cant observe it how do you know its coming from there?
Funny to me how many readily accept a definition such as force is and reject the same basic concept when observing a very similar though more complicated phenomenon. A phenomenon such as...?I remined you that forces can be observed, and therefore defined scientificaly, and you said that a soul cant be defined scientificaly - The term soul describes that which science cannot define.
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
If you want to talk like that, then nothing is ever observed. Forces are measured. In common scientific speech, a measurement is an observation. Thus, under the ordinary scientific use of "observe", forces are indeed observed. Ahhhh....thats what I wanted to say (Its sooooo obvious) ,I guess squirrles are fasrter that cats.
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
By this same definition I am observing the force of you. Is this some type of Monty Python sort of logic? 'If all forces are observed, then all that is obsrved are forces'. http://pressurecooker.phil.cmu.edu/logic.html
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kalimero Member (Idle past 2471 days) Posts: 251 From: Israel Joined: |
What behaviour do we exhibit that goes far beyond the basic needs of the body. None of this activity is needed.
Actually, these emotions (Curiousity, Wonder, Greed, Hate ect.) are an essential part of the survival of social creatures like us - maybe not as basic as a heart - but still essential. The ability to interact with other individuals is crucial for survival.Curiousity, Wonder, Greed, Hate ect. All these things and the behaviour that arises from them are not neccesary just as you see soul not to be. I dont think he meant that a soul is not essential for our survival, but that the concept of a soul is not essential in order to explain things such as emotion and conscience - I tend to agree.
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