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Author Topic:   Do animals have souls?
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 9 of 303 (294575)
03-12-2006 4:12 PM


Hello there
I definitely believe that animals have souls, not only from what the Bible says, but also from my connection to them and from what I have seen them do. I have a form of Autism called PDD, and some people who have this tend to have a special bond with animals. I love them dearly, and even though I am a born again Christian, I cant stand how many Christians keep teaching and saying the "animals-dont-have-souls" junk! Now if you are a non-Christian or non-Jew, and you have the belief that animals dont have souls (atheists, etc) then I have no beef with you. But the idea that animals dont have souls, let alone basing it on theology, is to me repugnant.
BTW: The King James translation of Ecclesiastes 3:21 (quoted above) is not the best rendition of that passage in Hebrew. It is better rendered "who knows if the spirit of a man goes upwards, and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the Earth" like the NIV and TNIV renders it, which reinforces the point that animals not only have a spirit, but also an afterlife as well. Remember, in this section of Ecclesiastes, Solomon is saying that man is but a beast and is no better off in death.
Even if the Bible didn't say or hinted that animals had souls, there is nothing in the Bible that says or hints that they dont.So it would be labeled a "secret thing", and "secret things" belong to the Lord, not man (deuteronomy 29:29) so we dont even have the right to say, teach or preach that animals dont have souls. But as we have seen, based on the Biblical text, they do.
BTW: sorry if I came off real rough. I just love animals, and take it personal when someone says they dont have souls, that's all.
This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-12-2006 04:21 PM

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 11 of 303 (294579)
03-12-2006 4:21 PM


Hey there
What kind of bat is on your picture or avatar? I cant seem to get mine to work

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 15 of 303 (294598)
03-12-2006 5:00 PM


to Faith:
Hello
The quote you are talking about is the one I quoted in my first post on this topic, and it does not say that an animal's spirit goes downward (save in the KJV, which was finished in 1611) the Hebrew is beter rendered "who knows IF the spirit of an animal goes into the Earth"
The idea that animals dont have a soul is an ancient idea in Biblical theology, but it was more than likely based on tradition, not on what the Bible says.
To administrator: Hello I did put the Avatar on my profile, but it didn't work. I'll try later.

Replies to this message:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 18 of 303 (294609)
03-12-2006 5:21 PM


Thank you Mr Jar I'll get right to it.

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 19 of 303 (294612)
03-12-2006 5:25 PM


I did it!! Thanks dudes.

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 21 of 303 (294641)
03-12-2006 6:42 PM


For me, it's because I love animals and have a connection with them. I have a little Pekingese at home (he's relatively huge, about 19 pounds and hardly any bodyfat. Pretty big for a peke) and I love him more than most people. They are pure. Their special. That's just my 2 cents.
BTW: Japanese fighting fish are way rad! I wish I had one.
This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-12-2006 06:43 PM

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 23 of 303 (294649)
03-12-2006 7:19 PM


Thanks dude
This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-12-2006 07:20 PM

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by AdminNosy, posted 03-12-2006 8:02 PM LudoRephaim has replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 25 of 303 (294726)
03-12-2006 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by AdminNosy
03-12-2006 8:02 PM


Re: LGRB
I think I did it. Did it work?
This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-12-2006 10:09 PM

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by AdminNosy, posted 03-12-2006 8:02 PM AdminNosy has not replied

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 28 of 303 (294974)
03-13-2006 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by macaroniandcheese
03-12-2006 10:40 PM


Re: Good Discussion
Hey there
I love hearing people's stories about their animals. My Pekingese dog loves cats, though he also loves to chase them.
This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-13-2006 05:31 PM

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 31 of 303 (295043)
03-13-2006 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
03-13-2006 7:56 PM


Creavolution: Hello there
Faith: Hi again
The translation of Ecclesiastes that you are quoting is no doubt from the KJV, which is not the best english translation of the Bible out there, let alone for this particular verse. Although the New King James Version agrees with the KJV reading, the best way to translate it is as the NIV and TNIV does:
"Who knows IF the spirit of man rises upward and IF the spirit of the animal goes down into the Earth?"
It's not asking if we know these spirits, but where they go when the body of each dies. And in the context of the paragraph, it is stating that people are like beasts in death. It even says in verse 19 that man has no advantage over the animals (and the context of this section is about death) If humans have no advantage over animals in death, how is it that humans and not animals survive after death in the form of an immortal spirit? I would certainly call that an advantage. Even in the same verse (19) it says that all (humans and animals) have the same "breath" which can also mean "spirit" (see notes at bottom of the page this verse is on in the NIV)
The NIV/TNIV rendering of this verse (which agrees better with the Hebrew than the KJV ( see "The New American Commentary: Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Songs." based on NIV text, pages 303-305 and footnotes as well)shows that Animal spirits are not defined as going into the Earth (probably meaning "Sheol", the Old testament abode of the Dead, said to be in the Earth, identified with the New Testament "Hades")but questions if mankind has a better afterlife awaiting him than the animals. And by this section of scripture, and the powerful punch of Ecclesiastes 3:21, it implies that animals do indeed have a spirit.
I have to go to sleep. Me tired. See y'all later.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 03-13-2006 7:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 03-14-2006 12:16 PM LudoRephaim has replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 32 of 303 (295045)
03-13-2006 11:44 PM


I hope I didn't sound harsh in my last post. I didn't mean to be rude. I was just trying to explain, that's all.
I like Faith, and everybody on here, just about

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Heathen, posted 03-14-2006 10:36 AM LudoRephaim has replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 36 of 303 (295226)
03-14-2006 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Heathen
03-14-2006 10:36 AM


When it comes to translations, the TNIV and NIV are far better and more up to date than the KJV. Remember the KJV was translated in 1611, while the NIV and TNIV where translated in the 20th and 21 centuries, respectively. We have learned a lot more about the ancient Hebrew language since 1611. Plus the Dead Sea scrolls where not known to the KJV translators. THe commentary I told about in my last post on this thread pretty much makes a solid case that the NIV rendition in this passage is more accurate and faithful to the Hebrew than the KJV rendering, and it agrees with the context of the paragraph it is in. THis section of Ecclesiastes is showing that man is no better off than animals when it comes to death. To render this verse in the KJV way would cause a spasm in the context, while the NIV/TNIV translations bring home powerfully what Solomon was trying to say.
And most modern translations tend to agree. The ESV (English Standard Version) renders the passage as such:
"Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of of the beast goes into the Earth?"
Some might say that this is going against the TNIV in it's rendering, but in reality it is saying the same thing. If it was trying to say that animal spirits go into the Earth (the Netherworld)then it would have been translated like this:
"Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward, or the spirit of the beast that goes into the Earth?"
But it doesn't render it this way, because it goes against the Hebrew as well as the context. And remember that the ESV is also a recent translation, and is far better in translation than the KJV. I use it as my study Bible (but it isn't my only one)
THe NASB (New American Standard) renders "spirit" as "Breath" but this is misleading, since the context is dealing with death and the afterlife, not whether the carbon dioxide of humans goes upward and the carbon dioxide of animals go into the Earth LOL . PLus, even though the NASB is the most literal Translation you will find, sometimes the most literal is not the best. My Spanish teacher told us that people began to use the "got Milk" advertisement in Mexico, but when they translated it literally, it came out "are you Lactating" ROFLMAO!!! So sometimes too literal can mislead, as is here. Plus, if it really meant "breath" it would no doubt mean the "breath of life" that all people and animals are given by God (see Genesis 1:30) and is believed by some scholars to mean the spirit (See "Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Dictionary" page 807, under "soul" and compare Genesis 2:7, 1:30, 7:20-22)
The JPS and NAB translate the word Ruach (spirit/breath) as "life-breath" (both humans and animal in the NAB) or "Breath" (for animals, while for humans life-breath in JPS) but even this is still talking about the afterlife and on par with the Hebrew as well as an animal having a spirit, as the commentary on this passage in the "Jewish Study Bible" (using JPS Translation)demonstrates (see page 1610, under commentary on 19-21 and 22 of this chapter of Ecclesiastes.)
Taking this, even the NASB comes in line (and it also doesn't define an animals spirit as going into the Earth, but asks if anybody knows if an animals spirit/breath goes into the Earth.)
THe only modern Translation that I can think of that uses the KJV rendering is the NKJV (New King James Version) but that rendering goes againt the weight of evidence that goes to the contrary, and that translation should not be seen on par with translations like the NASB, Updated NASB, ESV, TNIV, NIV, JPS, NAB, and hordes of others that are more scholarly.
Another way that the KJV and KNJV is falty is it's rendering of "Giants" in Genesis 6:4, when the hebrew is "Nephilim" which means "Fallen ones". Although the Nephilim are giants (NUmbers 13:33) they are more than just giants, considering the supernatural nature of their fathers, the "Sons of God" (i.e Angels), which is one reason why most modern translations will render the word simply "Nephilim" instead of "Giants" (see Genesis 6:4, compare KJV/NKJV with other modern translations, many of which I have just named)
Both the KJV and NKJV are good translations (I own and at times use both to study with, though not without other modern translations to compare verses with)and are quite valuable as liturature (the KJV has some beautiful language) but when it comes to doing an in depth Biblical study and thinking about what the scripture means, you cant do better than the modern translations (and or the original languages, if you know them)
Hope I've helped

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 37 of 303 (295228)
03-14-2006 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
03-14-2006 12:16 PM


You wont see anything in the strong's word studies that show an "if" but nevertheless the Hebrew should be read that way (see the New American Commentary that I quoted in an earlier thread, and the footnotes)
THe strong's concordance is good, but dont just use that as a source of the meaning of the Hebrew. And remember that most Modern Bible translations agree that the "if" should be in that particular passage (and those that did these translations where far more knowledgable of the Hebrew than Strong was)THe weight of the translations must be considered. And I've already quoted the commentary above which goes in depth into the hebrew (especially the footnotes)
Most modern Bible translations agree with this rendering.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 03-14-2006 12:16 PM Faith has not replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 38 of 303 (295231)
03-14-2006 12:43 PM


Aside from this passage, I can give you some passages that hint at animal afterlife, if you want to examine them. let me know.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Heathen, posted 03-14-2006 1:15 PM LudoRephaim has replied
 Message 46 by lfen, posted 03-26-2006 1:34 AM LudoRephaim has replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5193 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 40 of 303 (295244)
03-14-2006 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Heathen
03-14-2006 1:15 PM


Hey Dude
I cant stay long, but are some:
There are some passages which speak of what could be called "spirit Horses" such as when Elijah is taken up to Heaven (2 Kings 2:11-12)Some could say that the Horses are angels, but there seems to be human-like riders of those chariots (see verse 12) and angels are more than often seen in more human-like forms than animal ones. And the text doesn't show by it's wording that these horses are nothing more that Horses of the spirit kind. This is parralled in a vision that Elisha called for a freind of his to see, and the man saw horses and chariots made of fire, yet nobody else seemed to see them (see 2 Kings 6:17)as well as Revelation 19:11-14, where Jesus and his army are riding on White Horses, and they are pictured in Heaven. Now Revelation is not to be taken entirely literally (it is apocalyptic liturature, prophecy using symbols)and some have claimed that these Horses are angels. but some parts are not so symbolic to leave doubt over who or what the text is talking about (The "rider on the White Horse" who leads the armies of Heaven is described with powerful figurative language, yet you can tell it is Jesus (Compare Revelation 19:13 and 1:9-16 with John 1:1,14, 1 Tim 6:14-15) and usually when angels or demons are mentioned they are often named as such (though not always. See Revelation 9:13-19)and it is quite possible that these Horses could also be nothing more that supernatural Horses, and the other quotes in 2 Kings can bare that out.
This doesn't prove that these Horses are Horses who once lived on Earth and rose into Heaven, and the Horses of Revelation could be Horses, angels or some kind of other supernatural being (possibly a kind of Cherubim)but the passage in Revelation could very well be Horses, and the passages of spirit horses in the Old Testament (those in Historical narrative (such as 2 Kings) and not in Prophetic liturature (such as Isaiah)seem to indicate that not all animals are physical, and maybe hints to an afterlife. You dont need these passages to show so (such as Ecclesiastes 3:21) but these passages should be taken into account. They can be debated, but they shouldn't be ignored.
There are others, but I dont want to spend all day on this. For a good study in this, see the Book "101 Answers To The Most Asked Questions About The End Times" By Mark Hitchcock, a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, Pastor and an expert on Bible Prophecy. On pages 260-262 of the book he tackles the issue of whether animals will be in Heaven or not. It is very good.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
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