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Author Topic:   Inspecting a rock the day after creation
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6435
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 106 of 137 (921360)
01-09-2025 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by dad3
01-09-2025 12:04 AM


Re: point?
Your claim is empty. Creation in the bible is clear from cover to cover, Capice?
Capisco più di te.
Wow! Are you really so incapable of understanding even the simplest things? Are you really so clueless?
Even sadder than you being so clueless is that you are willfully clueless.
Nobody is talking about "Creation in the bible", which even creationism isn't actually talking about. I'm talking about the actual Creation. What the Bible says has nothing to do with anything, least of all with creationism, since virtually all of its claims lie about the Creation and claim that its lies and not the Creation must be true, which they are not. That creationism lies about the Creation reflects on creationism and not on the Creation. Perché non lo capisci?
BTW, "Capice" isn't even a word and it most definitely is NOT a conjugation of capire. Non sai niente? But, no, you will never make any effort to learn anything.
You being too clueless to understand what I've explained to you twice now is not a reflection on my claim, but rather on your inability to understand anything.
Do I have to go through it with you step by step? I would be willing to, but you will just refuse to read it. Just as you already have.
Your willful cluelessness is a sign of mental illness. Or is it due to your having been brainwashed by your cult? Either way, you need help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by dad3, posted 01-09-2025 12:04 AM dad3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by dad3, posted 01-09-2025 1:22 AM dwise1 has replied

  
dad3
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 65
Joined: 01-02-2025


Message 107 of 137 (921361)
01-09-2025 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by dwise1
01-09-2025 12:21 AM


woulda coulda
Whatever the rock was (and the oldest rock in the world from Canada was the example) doesn't matter. Who could say if something in the creation event/process could not lead to wet or hot or etc? After creation the planet was changed and things moved. Lots of metamorphic rocks etc could result when we separate the water and land on a planet!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by dwise1, posted 01-09-2025 12:21 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
dad3
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 65
Joined: 01-02-2025


Message 108 of 137 (921362)
01-09-2025 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by dwise1
01-09-2025 12:47 AM


defining 'actual' by 'natural only
You are in no position to claim that the universe and world got here by natural only processes. Sorry. How would you know if supernatural creation happened or not? Stick to what you know

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by dwise1, posted 01-09-2025 12:47 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Zucadragon, posted 01-09-2025 8:22 AM dad3 has replied
 Message 124 by dwise1, posted 01-09-2025 3:28 PM dad3 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9846
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 109 of 137 (921363)
01-09-2025 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by dad3
01-08-2025 10:14 PM


Re: make the bad man go away
dad3 writes:
In heaven there are lightnings in the end as God prepares to unleash the judgment seals on earth.
That was something that was supposed to happen 2,000 years ago but didn't and it hasn't happened yet so we can discount it without further ado.
There was a storm in Job where Satan created a wind and blew a house down and killed people
Someone we don't know, wrote something 4,000 years ago about Satan creating a wind? You regard that as evidence of supernatural lightning? For a start it was wind not lightning, but I was really after something a bit more recent and even vaguely credible.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by dad3, posted 01-08-2025 10:14 PM dad3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by dad3, posted 01-09-2025 11:12 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 224
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 110 of 137 (921364)
01-09-2025 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by dad3
01-09-2025 1:22 AM


Re: defining 'actual' by 'natural only
dad3 writes:
You are in no position to claim that the universe and world got here by natural only processes. Sorry. How would you know if supernatural creation happened or not? Stick to what you know
Please hold up a mirror and realize that your precious bible was written by people. The only thing you have is the belief that it's God's word, but even then, that's no evidence for anything, that is just a belief.
But even in that belief, you're faltering because you are actively working to undermine God's design by claiming YOU know better than God.
Which of these two cases is more logical to you, considering that we both accept for a moment that God created everything.
1. God created the universe and the earth 6000 years ago and in such a way, that it looks billions of years old. Thus satisfying your own belief.
2. God created the universe and earth billions of years ago and created the laws that govern our reality, the rules, the powers in such a way that humanity, once they grew enough, could discover God's greatness through their study of it all and find that what God created has governing laws and rules that are logical for the benefit of our search for knowledge.
Now, which of those two honors God more, do you feel?
And which one ignores the possibily of a massive, old universe created by God in order to create a version that is much younger and only coincidentally LOOKS old when it's not.
Basically, I feel that the second option is a much more honest way to approach it, if you pick the first though, you're saying your view, your thoughts on the matter are more or less infallible.
And I don't have to tell you the sheer arrogance of such a stance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by dad3, posted 01-09-2025 1:22 AM dad3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by dad3, posted 01-09-2025 11:18 AM Zucadragon has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13197
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 111 of 137 (921365)
01-09-2025 10:23 AM


Moderator Action
The minimum word limit for messages for the dad3 account has been set to 500.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
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dad3
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 65
Joined: 01-02-2025


Message 112 of 137 (921367)
01-09-2025 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Tangle
01-09-2025 4:57 AM


future is future
[ Content hidden after violation of minimum word limit. --Admin ]

This message is a reply to:
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dad3
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 65
Joined: 01-02-2025


Message 113 of 137 (921369)
01-09-2025 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Admin
01-09-2025 10:23 AM


final warning
[ Content hidden after violation of minimum word limit. --Admin ]

This message is a reply to:
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dad3
Member (Idle past 396 days)
Posts: 65
Joined: 01-02-2025


Message 114 of 137 (921370)
01-09-2025 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Zucadragon
01-09-2025 8:22 AM


Re: defining 'actual' by 'natural only
[ Content hidden after violation of minimum word limit. --Admin ]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Zucadragon, posted 01-09-2025 8:22 AM Zucadragon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by dwise1, posted 01-09-2025 11:39 AM dad3 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6435
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 115 of 137 (921371)
01-09-2025 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Admin
01-09-2025 10:23 AM


Re: Moderator Action
He is immediately engaging in malicious compliance.
Suspend his sorry stupid ass!

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 6435
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 116 of 137 (921372)
01-09-2025 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by dad3
01-09-2025 11:18 AM


Re: defining 'actual' by 'natural only
Fuck off, you stupid asshole!
And fuck your stupid little liar god too!
From my cre/ev links page, The Word of God, a filk song:
quote:
The Word of God by filk poet & song-writer Catherine Faber -- who also has a Ph.D. Biology
Inspirational and moving view of Creation, regardless of your views of "God".
Though some bible-worshippers might not like it.
She writes:
This song was inspired when a friend of mine complained to me about a run-in with some Creationists, and asked "what can you say to such people?" The first words that popped out of my mouth were "humans wrote the bible. God wrote the rocks."
"The profoundest act of worship is to try to understand."

The text of the song at the link given above:
quote:
The Word of God
Lyrics and melody © 1994 by Catherine Faber
From desert cliff and mountaintop we trace the wide design,
Strike-slip fault and overthrust and syn and anticline. . .
We gaze upon creation where erosion makes it known,
And count the countless aeons in the banding of the stone.
Odd, long-vanished creatures and their tracks & shells are found;
Where truth has left its sketches on the slate below the ground.
The patient stone can speak, if we but listen when it talks.
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the rocks.
There are those who name the stars, who watch the sky by night,
Seeking out the darkest place, to better see the light.
Long ago, when torture broke the remnant of his will,
Galileo recanted, but the Earth is moving still.
High above the mountaintops, where only distance bars,
The truth has left its footprints in the dust between the stars.
We may watch and study or may shudder and deny,
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the sky.
By stem and root and branch we trace, by feather, fang and fur,
How the living things that are descend from things that were.
The moss, the kelp, the zebrafish, the very mice and flies,
These tiny, humble, wordless things---how shall they tell us lies?
We are kin to beasts; no other answer can we bring.
The truth has left its fingerprints on every living thing.
Remember, should you have to choose between them in the strife,
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote life.
And we who listen to the stars, or walk the dusty grade,
Or break the very atoms down to see how they are made,
Or study cells, or living things, seek truth with open hand.
The profoundest act of worship is to try to understand.
Deep in flower and in flesh, in star and soil and seed,
The truth has left its living word for anyone to read.
So turn and look where best you think the story is unfurled.
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.

Think about what the song says.
In the meantime, thank you again for your zealous efforts to promote the growth and spread of atheism. Thank you for your service.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by dad3, posted 01-09-2025 11:18 AM dad3 has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13197
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 117 of 137 (921373)
01-09-2025 11:46 AM


Moderator Action
dad3 has been suspended for 24 hours for violating his minimum word limit, which has been set to 500 words. When you post a message shorter than your minimum word limit a pop-up box with this text appears:
quote:
The minimum word length for your messages is n. This message only has m words. Please lengthen your message. You can, of course, lengthen your message with nonsense, but in that case you'll receive a temporary suspension.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23637
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 118 of 137 (921374)
01-09-2025 11:53 AM


Off-topc Comment
What amazes me is how little influence being a Christian has on their behavior, that it actually seems to affect their behavior negatively. When someone tells me they're a Christian I put my hand over my wallet and check the china.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Tangle, posted 01-09-2025 12:10 PM Percy has seen this message but chosen not to reply
 Message 120 by dwise1, posted 01-09-2025 12:47 PM Percy has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9846
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 119 of 137 (921375)
01-09-2025 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Percy
01-09-2025 11:53 AM


Re: Off-topic Comment
Two reasons probably; they're uneducated raving nutters and we're heretics and infidels so they can behave as badly as they like - their mad god would approve.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Percy, posted 01-09-2025 11:53 AM Percy has seen this message but chosen not to reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6435
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 120 of 137 (921376)
01-09-2025 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Percy
01-09-2025 11:53 AM


Re: Off-topc Comment
It's in an old bumper sticker: "I'm not perfect, just forgiven."
Add to that the fundamentalist teaching (from my time with the Jesus Freaks of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, c. 1970) that despite our best efforts to not do wrong, we will inevitably "stumble" and must seek forgiveness when that happens. I mention the church, because when I was associated with the 50+ Singles Ministry at Saddleback Church, they expressed contempt for the Calvary people for being extremely legalistic (isn't that how Christians always malign the Pharisees?).
That last creates a legalistic loophole for them to never bother to try to do better, but rather they will sin gladly (especially if they can justify it as "doing bad for Jesus" which includes creationism's "Lying for the Lord") and then "make it all better" by asking their Invisible Friend, Jesus, for forgiveness which they are guaranteed (as I've said before, if your own invisible friend refuses to forgive you, then you have some very serious personal problems that may require professional help). And, of course, they have no need to right the wrongs they do to others, not even any thought of apologizing.
In his The Authoritarians, Bob Altemeyer addresses "cheap grace" and its effect on their "life without guilt" (I apologize for the extensive quoting, but it does directly address your point):
The Authoritarians:
Cheap Grace. Unfortunately, fundamentalist Protestantism may directly promote hypocrisy among its members through one of its major theological principles: that if one accepts Jesus as a personal savior and asks for the forgiveness of one’s sins, one will be saved. But a lot depends on what “accepts” means. Is one’s life transformed? Do good works increase? Is the born-again person more like Jesus, holier? That would be all to the good. But because of some evangelist preachers, the interpretation has grown that all “accepts” means is a one-time verbal commitment. You say the magic words and you go to heaven, no matter what kind of life you lead afterwards. Many have thought that a pretty sweet deal. You’ve conned a free pass through the Pearly Gates from the Almighty and you can sin and debauch all you want for the rest of your life.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer coined the phrase “cheap grace” to denigrate this interpretation of the New Testament, and other writers have lamented the cheap grace that seems to ooze from some evangelists who seem to keep a sharp eye on the donations that follow. Sider (p. 57) summarizes the analysis of another professor of theology, John G. Stackhouse Jr., as follows: “Many evangelicals lie, cheat, and otherwise sin against others in an ‘already-forgiven bliss’ with an attitude of ‘I’mcool-’cause-Jesus-loves-me-and-so-I-don’t-owe-you-a-thing.’”
Do only good little girls and boys go to heaven? Or does goodness, as the film star Mae West said many years ago, have nothing to do with it? I asked a large sample of parents to respond to the following proposition: “If we have faith in Jesus, accepting him as our personal savior and asking forgiveness of our sins, we will be saved, no matter what kind of life we live afterwards.” Forty-two percent of the Christian high fundamentalists agreed with that statement. If that indicates the attitude of fundamentalists in general, a huge number of people are swilling in cheap grace. They fully expect that when the saints go marching in, they’re gonna be in that number because they once uttered a magic spell. The lives they’ve lived since are irrelevant, they believe.
Life Without Guilt. That helps explain the hypocrisy many people find among “the saved.” But it doesn’t really account for the self-righteousness. After all, you still knows you’ve sinned--even if you have a “Get Out of Hell Free”card tucked up your sleeve. So why do fundamentalists think they sin so much less than everyone else? The answer may involve how they have learned to handle guilt, thanks again to their religious instruction.
What do you do when you have done something morally wrong? What are you most likely to do to get over the guilt, to feel forgiven, to be at peace with yourself? Here are some possibilities.
I ask God for forgiveness, by prayer, going to Confession, or some other religious act.
I go out and do something nice for someone else, a “third party” not involved in what I did.
I rationalize the bad act. I tell myself it was not so bad, that I had no choice, etc.
I talk to someone close, such as a good friend or relative, about what I did.
I get very busy with some chore, assignment, or job to take my mind off what I did.
I discuss what I did with those who may have suffered, and make it up to them.
Nothing; I just forget it.

OK, whatever you typically do, how well does this work? How completely forgiven
do you feel after you have done this?
0 = Not at all; I still feel just as guilty as before.
1 = A little less guilty
2 = Somewhat less guilty
3 = Moderately less guilty
4 = Appreciably less guilty
5 = Much less guilty
6 = Completely free of guilt
Most Christian fundamentalists who have answered these questions in my studies said they ask God for forgiveness. And you know what, that makes them feel remarkably cleansed. Their average response on the “How completely forgiven?”question was nearly a 5. Again, it’s just a verbal thing. No admission of wrong-doing to injured parties is required, no restitution, and no change in behavior. But it works really well: Instant Guilt-Be-Gone; just add a little prayer. And why wouldn’t you sin again, since it’s so easy to erase the transgression with your Easyoff, Easy-on religious practice?
Fundamentalists therefore might feel little after-effect of their wrong-doings twitching away in their psyches. They have been to the River Jordan and had all their sins washed away, often on a weekly basis just like doing the laundry. But this very likely contributes to self-righteousness, and let’s remember that self-righteousness appears to be the major releaser of authoritarian aggression. So it could come down to this: “Hello Satan!” Yum, sin! “Get thee behind me, Satan!” Whack-whack-whack!
In sharp contrast, atheists lack the out of "cheap grace" and so we must deal with our own transgressions, try to make amends with those we've wronged, and actually try to do better. Picking up from where we just left off:
The Authoritarians:
The non-fundamentalists in my samples did not have it so good. Their major ways of handling guilt were to discuss the immoral act with those who may have suffered and make it up to them (which they were twice as likely to do as fundamentalist were), or to talk with a friend about what they had done. Whatever they tried, it did not remove most of the guilt; their responses to the “How completely forgiven?” question averaged less than 3. But the residual guilt may help them avoid doing the same thing again, and when someone asks them how moral they are compared to other people, the unresolved, festering guilt may remind them that they are not as moral as they’d like to be.
Verily, the world would be so much better if we all embraced atheistic morality and dumped Christian morality in the nearest landfill.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Percy, posted 01-09-2025 11:53 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Percy, posted 01-09-2025 2:42 PM dwise1 has replied

  
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