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Author Topic:   The Glorification and Worship of Torture
Tangle
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Posts: 9524
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 1 of 65 (917300)
03-31-2024 4:49 PM


I accidentally watched part of Bach's St John Passion, this being Easter weekend. I switched the TV on and came in at this part; unfortunately the damn thing was in English. Half spoken, half sung - recitative - it's bad enough in the original language that I don't understand - it's not even music - but in English it's horrible
But the Jews,
because it was the day of preparation,
so that the corpses
should not remain on the cross over the sabbath,
(for the sabbath day was very solemn)
asked Pilate that their legs should be broken and they should be taken away .
Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and the other
who were crucified with him.
But when they came to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead,
and they did not break his legs;
but one of the soldiers opened his side with a spear
and at once blood and water came out.
and the one who saw it has testified this,
and his testimony is true,
and he knows that he speaks the truth
so that you may believe.
This happened
so that the Scripture might be fulfilled:
“You shall break none of his bones”.
And elsewhere another scripture says:
“They will look on him whom they have pierced”.
It made me bloody angry, I had to leave the room. This Christian obsession with and mass glorification of torture made me squirm.
I remember a whole class in school about "The Passion of Christ" aka the detailed torturing to death of a man over several days. The teacher described in medical detail what was happening. Breaking legs meant that they could no longer support the body on the cross forcing the lungs to collapse. It was supposed to be humane as it quickened death.
Jesus though was found to be already dead so the soldier pierced his side with a spear. The fact that a mixture of blood and water left the body is some sort of post-mortem effect.
This description of awful suffering went on for an hour, I was barely a teenager. It was meant to show how much god loves us, to sacrifice his only son in the horrendous ways is some sort of weird proof. It had the opposite effect on me - I thought the teacher was a mad woman and that god was a psychopath.
The Catholics really go to town on this, they have a ritual called the Stations of the Cross and if you perform them every Friday in succession you get a plenary indulgence - essential a get out of jail card; the forgiveness of all your previous sins. If you die immediately after this you go straight to heaven, do not pass go, no time in purgatory. Job done.
quote:
The Stations of the Cross or the Way of the Cross, also known as the Way of Sorrows or the Via Crucis, are a series of images depicting Jesus Christ on the day of his crucifixion and accompanying prayers. The stations grew out of imitations of the Via Dolorosa in Jerusalem, which is a traditional processional route symbolising the path Jesus walked to Mount Calvary. The objective of the stations is to help the Christian faithful to make a spiritual pilgrimage through contemplation of the Passion of Christ. It has become one of the most popular devotions and the stations can be found in many Western Christian churches, including those in the Roman Catholic,[1] Lutheran,[2][3] Anglican,[4] and Methodist traditions.[5][6]
Stations of the Cross - Wikipedia
This is medieval thinking carried forward and normalised in the 21st century. In Bach's Passion it's promoted as high art, if in popular culture it would likely be banned.
Still angry.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by AZPaul3, posted 03-31-2024 7:38 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 4 by Rahvin, posted 03-31-2024 10:25 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 6 by candle2, posted 04-12-2024 8:42 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 57 by candle2, posted 05-17-2024 6:25 PM Tangle has replied

  
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Message 2 of 65 (917302)
03-31-2024 5:08 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The Glorification and Worship of Torture thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
AZPaul3
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Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 3 of 65 (917305)
03-31-2024 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
03-31-2024 4:49 PM


It made me bloody angry, I had to leave the room. This Christian obsession with and mass glorification of torture made me squirm.
On the other hand, I appreciate such shows and their gory details of the scourging, flailing and flogging. Mel Gibson’s Passion was especially graphic and cringe-inducing. This is the core essence of all religion: intolerant, violent, bloody. A theme Christianity has held steadfast for two millennia. I love pointing out how consistent the church is in keeping to this evil bloody theme even today.
This is medieval thinking carried forward and normalised in the 21st century.
Yes, it is and I am pleased the church displays its ongoing penchant for evil so openly. Makes things a bit easier when advising people what philosophies to avoid in life.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2024 4:49 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Rahvin
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Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 4 of 65 (917309)
03-31-2024 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
03-31-2024 4:49 PM


I had a similar reaction to the Mel Gibson Passion of the Christ, and at the time I was still a Christian. It's like the "torture porn" horror subgenre but with an expected religious experience blended in.
But remember that the Christian holy symbol is a torturous execution device, sometimes with the victim still present and suffering. Chrstianity has often been called a death cult, and it's accurate, but it is also and has always been a suffering cult. Humans deserve suffering, and only through the scapegoat-sacrifice of putting all of that suffering onto Jesus can our own suffering in the afterlife be removed.
It's repugnant.

-->“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

-->Nihil supernum --> -->


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2024 4:49 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Taq, posted 04-01-2024 11:27 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10139
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 5 of 65 (917314)
04-01-2024 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Rahvin
03-31-2024 10:25 PM


Rahvin writes:
But remember that the Christian holy symbol is a torturous execution device, sometimes with the victim still present and suffering. Chrstianity has often been called a death cult, and it's accurate, but it is also and has always been a suffering cult. Humans deserve suffering, and only through the scapegoat-sacrifice of putting all of that suffering onto Jesus can our own suffering in the afterlife be removed.
From the "drive slowly past a car accident" point of view, it is interesting to see how this mentality plays out in modern Christianity with in the western world. Christians here in the US aren't suffering because of their beliefs, and that makes them feel weird. They think they should be suffering. What Christians in the US have done is invent persecution where there is none. I hear my mother tell these stories all of the time, or hear her invent persecution from whole cloth, something along the lines of, "If I prayed before my meal in a restaurant people would probably want to kick me out!". Since I love my mother I try not to visibly roll my eyes, but it's not an easy task.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Rahvin, posted 03-31-2024 10:25 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 859
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 6 of 65 (917634)
04-12-2024 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
03-31-2024 4:49 PM


Tangle, you post false/strawman statements and blame
these religious lies on Christians.
I will address other false issues that you raised, but for
now I will address your so-called "cross."
Jesus was not nailed to a cross. The Greek word for cross
is crux. It is not used in the NT.
The NT word interpreted as cross comes from "stauros."
Strong's Concordance and Vine's Expository Dictionary
of Bible Words define stauros as an upright pale or stake.
Stauros is from base word of "histemi," which simply
means to stand.
The cross was used in many pagan cultures centuries
before the birth of Christ.
Stauros no more means cross than stick means baseball
bat.
The ancient Mesopotamian god of fertility, Tammuz was
represented by a T that resembled a cross. Tammuz is
mentioned in Ezekiel 8:14.
Many, many false practices and beliefs have been passed
down through the centuries by the Roman Catholic Church.
In order to gather more followers the RCC incorporated
hundreds of pagan practices, and they passed many of
these practices to their daughter churches.
The false cross has become an idol. And idolatry if
strictly forbidden by the 2nd Commandment.
John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must
worship Him in spirit and in truth."
In ant event, those who murdered Christ in such a hideous
manner were not Christians. It was carried out by
Romans and unbelieving Jews.
God forbids His followers from causing harm to others,
or rejoicing in their pain.
It was carried out by people such as yourself. It was
carried out by people who did not understand Him, and
who deeply despised Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2024 4:49 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 04-12-2024 10:06 AM candle2 has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9524
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 7 of 65 (917639)
04-12-2024 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by candle2
04-12-2024 8:42 AM


Why do you think any of that makes any difference to the fact that millions, if not billions of Christians glorify torture in the worship of their god?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by candle2, posted 04-12-2024 8:42 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 04-12-2024 10:34 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 17 by candle2, posted 04-13-2024 6:59 PM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(4)
Message 8 of 65 (917642)
04-12-2024 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
04-12-2024 10:06 AM


7 writes:
Why do you think any of that makes any difference to the fact that millions, if not billions of Christians glorify torture in the worship of their god?
Not the kind of torture you're talking about, but there's also the psychological torture of the millions, if not billions, of Christians experiencing terror at the thought of dying and going to hell before having a chance to get right with God.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 04-12-2024 10:06 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by candle2, posted 04-12-2024 3:37 PM Percy has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 859
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 9 of 65 (917666)
04-12-2024 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
04-12-2024 10:34 AM


Percy, you stated;
"There's also the psychological torture of the millions, if
not billions, of Christians experiencing terror at the
thought of dying and going to hell before having a chance
to get right."
***If one feels this way, then that individual is Christian
in name only.
1 John 4:18. "There is no fear in love; perfect love casts
out fear...
In any event, the Bible does not teach that those who
reject God will burn in hell (Gehenna fire) for eternity.
It teaches that they will die for eternity.
Doing this present age God is calling those who have
been predestinated to conform to His image.
The predestinated (proorizo, limited in advance) are
talked about in Ephesians 1:5,11 & Romans 8:29-30.
Calvanists believe that only those who are predestinated
will receive eternal life based on these verses.
But, the predestinated are those whom God calls and
offers them a position in His coming Kingdom as spirit
Beings, sons of God.
These individuals are baptized with this commission. They
devote their earthly life to Him and His cause.
In the coming Kingdom of God they will implement God's
government over the entire earth. They will assist Christ
in converting others to the ways of God.
These individuals now possess a degree of God's Holy
Spirit. With God's Holy Spirit each one called will, over
time, grow into a new man or woman.
A true Christian will slowly turn into a new person, and
develop fruits of the Spirit.
Fruits of the Spirit consists of love, joy, peace, forbearance,
kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-
control.
An individual who is ruled by fear does not possess these
qualities.
Matthew 13:10-15 & Mark 4:10-12 state clearly that Jesus
spoke in parables to hide much of what He was teaching.
He is not presently trying to save everyone.
However, He will give everyone who has ever lived the
opportunity to personally know Him, and a chance at
eternal life.
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise,
as some count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us,
not willing than ant should perish but that ALL should
come to repentance."
The fear of dying is in every man, except those who love
God with all their heart.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 04-12-2024 10:34 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 04-12-2024 3:46 PM candle2 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(3)
Message 10 of 65 (917667)
04-12-2024 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by candle2
04-12-2024 3:37 PM


You can just feel the love.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by candle2, posted 04-12-2024 3:37 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by candle2, posted 04-12-2024 6:48 PM Percy has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 859
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 11 of 65 (917674)
04-12-2024 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Percy
04-12-2024 3:46 PM


Percy, you wrote:
"You can just feel the love."
***I do not want to see anyone die for all eternity. It would
be really sad. I can also feel pain for someone other than
myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 04-12-2024 3:46 PM Percy has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8582
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 12 of 65 (917678)
04-12-2024 8:56 PM


FYI
Regardless of whatever candle2 perceives in his interpretations of what the “cross” is/was/supposed to be, there is a political dimension to the use of the cross as a universal symbol of Christianity.
The orthodox and catholic cults have the figure of the crucified Jesus on the cross complete with nails in both hands and feet. The protestant cults take the Jesus figure off the cross and use the cross sans Jesus as the symbol of their beliefs.
The orthodox keep the jesus figure because he represents the pain and suffering, the sacrifice of blood and death that he suffered for all humanity to cleanse us of our sin. In this, we, the believer, the faithful, are spared the stain of sin and thus may enter into everlasting life with the holy spirit.
The protestants resurrected the body of the Christ off the cross to symbolize the defeat of death and the gift of everlasting life a resurrected Jesus promises to all that would follow him.
In either case these religions use a known torture device as a revered figure. These religions believe their flavor of god demands torture, pain, blood and sacrifice to wash away the filth with which their god made us. People believe this crap.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by candle2, posted 04-13-2024 4:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 859
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 13 of 65 (917684)
04-13-2024 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by AZPaul3
04-12-2024 8:56 PM


Re: FYI
AZPaul, you wrote:
"The orthodox and catholic cults have the figure of the
crucified Jesus on the cross complete with nails in both
hands and feet. The protestant cults take the Jesus figure off the cross and use the cross sans Jesus as the symbol of their beliefs."
***What does the pagan RCC have to do with Christ?
Christ was not crucified on a cross. In any event, neither
Jesus nor the Bible approve of this behavior.
Simply because a group calls themselves Christian, does
not make them so.
In like manner, a man who puts on lipstick and wear a
dress is not a woman, regardless of how much they
insist that they ate.
You mention the orthodox and catholics as cults and
indeed they. They are not Christians. And they do not
speak for Christ, nor are they part of Christ's Church.
They and they daughter churches are in the same boat
as you and your friends. You do not know Christ, nor do
they.
Your conclusion is wrong because you start with the
wrong premises.
Now if you wish to discuss what the Bible really says
about God's church, I would be glad to do so, but I
am not about to defend ungodly practices and doctrines.
I have the feeling that you know very little about God's
true church, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 04-12-2024 8:56 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by AZPaul3, posted 04-13-2024 6:47 PM candle2 has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9524
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 14 of 65 (917685)
04-13-2024 5:15 PM


You religious loonies are all cults. And you can't spell.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Percy, posted 04-13-2024 5:35 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 15 of 65 (917688)
04-13-2024 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tangle
04-13-2024 5:15 PM


Tangle in Message 14 writes:
You religious loonies are all cults. And you can't spell.
But did you notice he forgot to use carriage return on one line? I think that's a first!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Tangle, posted 04-13-2024 5:15 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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