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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9524
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 496 of 536 (917425)
04-07-2024 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by candle2
04-07-2024 9:04 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
We've done Tacitus, when are you going to show that the historical Jesus created the universe?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by candle2, posted 04-07-2024 9:04 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4483
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 497 of 536 (917426)
04-07-2024 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by candle2
04-07-2024 9:04 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
candle2 in Message 495 writes:
Panties Pilate.
Panties? Really, a Roman named Panties? He invented underwear, right?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by candle2, posted 04-07-2024 9:04 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 498 of 536 (917427)
04-07-2024 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by candle2
04-07-2024 9:04 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Long ago we granted that for the sake of discussion in this thread the historical Jesus is a real person. Your task now is to show that the historical Jesus created the universe.
ICANT began this weird thread, and when he abandoned it you for some reason decided to take his place. Is his claim that it was the historical Jesus who created the universe one you really want to support? You mentioned faith earlier. Isn't it more the Jesus of faith who you believe created the universe?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by candle2, posted 04-07-2024 9:04 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9265
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 499 of 536 (917429)
04-07-2024 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by candle2
04-06-2024 4:39 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Marco Polo probably existed but he was certainly a fabulist.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by candle2, posted 04-06-2024 4:39 PM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 500 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-07-2024 12:12 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4483
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 500 of 536 (917431)
04-07-2024 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by Theodoric
04-07-2024 10:47 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
I heard he was a swimmer.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by Theodoric, posted 04-07-2024 10:47 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 859
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 501 of 536 (917433)
04-07-2024 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Percy
03-26-2024 8:46 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Percy, another non-Biblical source concerning Christ and
Christians was recorded by Pliny the Younger, Roman
Governor of Bithynia.
Pliny wrote to Emperor Trajan asking for his counsel on
dealing with the early Christian community.
Pliny conducted trials of suspected Christians who
appeared before Him. It is suspected that they refused to
acknowledge and worship Roman gods.
In any case, after three chances to show their innocence
they were executed.
Pliny went on to say that investigations often revealed
harmless practices. However, Pliny considered them to be
depraved, and filled with excessive superstition.
Pliny was concerned that Christian gatherings could
serve as a potential starting point for sedition.
This is an abbreviated reply of Pliny and Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Percy, posted 03-26-2024 8:46 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by Percy, posted 04-07-2024 1:46 PM candle2 has replied
 Message 503 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2024 1:50 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 504 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-07-2024 1:55 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 502 of 536 (917434)
04-07-2024 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by candle2
04-07-2024 1:14 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
For this discussion it is assumed that Jesus was a historical personage.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by candle2, posted 04-07-2024 1:14 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by candle2, posted 04-08-2024 9:16 AM Percy has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9524
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 503 of 536 (917435)
04-07-2024 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by candle2
04-07-2024 1:14 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
...and we've done Pliny...

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by candle2, posted 04-07-2024 1:14 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4483
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 504 of 536 (917436)
04-07-2024 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by candle2
04-07-2024 1:14 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
candle2 in Message 501 writes:
Pliny wrote to Emperor Trajan asking for his counsel on dealing with the early Christian community.
Was this before or after Jesus created the Universe?
candle2 in Message 501 writes:
Pliny conducted trials of suspected Christians who appeared before Him. It is suspected that they refused to acknowledge and worship Roman gods.
Was this before or after Jesus created the Universe?
candle2 in Message 501 writes:
In any case, after three chances to show their innocence they were executed.
Was this before or after Jesus created the Universe?
candle2 in Message 501 writes:
Pliny went on to say that investigations often revealed harmless practices. However, Pliny considered them to be depraved, and filled with excessive superstition.
Was this before or after Jesus created the Universe?
candle2 in Message 501 writes:
Pliny was concerned that Christian gatherings could serve as a potential starting point for sedition.
Was this before or after Jesus created the Universe?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by candle2, posted 04-07-2024 1:14 PM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 509 by Phat, posted 04-08-2024 10:50 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 859
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 505 of 536 (917443)
04-08-2024 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 502 by Percy
04-07-2024 1:46 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Percy, you stated:
"For this discussion it is assumed that Jesus was a
historical personage."
***This is exactly the point that ICANT, and several others
are making.
Jesus was and still is a alive.
The Bible confirms this. Since the Bible is right about Jesus
living and breathing, we must not readily dismiss the other
claims that His Apostles and Prophets made about Him.
We must also look at the OT prophecies made concerning
Jesus and their actual fulfillment in the NT.
I get a chuckle when reading Paulk's reply concerning
the fulfillment of these predictions.
The guy has a deep hate for Jesus, and this hate alters
his cognitive reasoning. He hates Jesus because Satan
has painted an extreme negative image of Him.
I used to have this same negative image of Him. I had
this image because I allowed others, including pastors,
preachers, etc... to shape my thinking.
God will reveal Himself and His plans for humanity, if one
will seek Him with all their heart--all of it.
To accept that the Bible has been proven right about the
fact that Jesus lived, while denying the rest of what the
Bible teaches, is using false and premeditated logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by Percy, posted 04-07-2024 1:46 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by Tangle, posted 04-08-2024 10:01 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 507 by Percy, posted 04-08-2024 10:03 AM candle2 has replied
 Message 512 by PaulK, posted 04-08-2024 12:36 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9524
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 506 of 536 (917444)
04-08-2024 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 505 by candle2
04-08-2024 9:16 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Are you ever going to tell us whether the historical Jesus created the universe? Ever?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by candle2, posted 04-08-2024 9:16 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 507 of 536 (917445)
04-08-2024 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 505 by candle2
04-08-2024 9:16 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Please proceed with your evidence and arguments that the historical Jesus created the universe.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by candle2, posted 04-08-2024 9:16 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 508 by Phat, posted 04-08-2024 10:38 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 515 by candle2, posted 04-09-2024 11:18 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 508 of 536 (917449)
04-08-2024 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 507 by Percy
04-08-2024 10:03 AM


Topic Refocus
Percy writes:
Please proceed with your evidence and arguments that the historical Jesus created the universe.
To reiterate: Historical Jesus
Wiki:
The term "historical Jesus" refers to the life and teachings of Jesus as interpreted through critical historical methods, in contrast to what are traditionally religious interpretations It also considers the historical and cultural contexts in which Jesus lived. Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure, and the idea that Jesus was a mythical figure has been consistently rejected by the scholarly consensus as a fringe theory. Scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the biblical accounts, with only two events being supported by nearly universal scholarly consensus: Jesus was baptized and Jesus was crucified.
Based on this working definition, the "Historical Jesus" (was) widely considered to have once existed, been baptized,and was crucified. Thus the short answer is NO. The Jesus of Christian faith and belief was (and is) Gods eternal character. A Christian believes that God always existed and Trinitarians believe that Jesus (as human character) was in the beginning with the Father...long before the point in time where He was physically born.
Thus we believe that the Jesus of Christian faith and tradition did initiate(create) the universe as we know it. Personally I believe that Jesus initiated matter as we know it. Beyond that simple belief, I'll let Cosmologists explain how the universe potentially evolved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by Percy, posted 04-08-2024 10:03 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 509 of 536 (917450)
04-08-2024 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 504 by Tanypteryx
04-07-2024 1:55 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Tany writes:
Was this before or after Jesus created the Universe?
Without knowing Candles beliefs, I would guess that his answer to all of your questions is "after".. I don't think he really accepts the theory of a "Historical Jesus". (as I expounded on in my Wiki quote)
As you ponder the wonder of the Sun being eclipsed by the moon and how the Sun itself is simply one of trillions of stars potentially existing, perhaps you can understand our (primitive) belief that matter was at one time initiated and did *not* always exist. I hope you and your wife have a relaxing yet exciting trip and that you feel better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-07-2024 1:55 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by Phat, posted 04-08-2024 10:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 511 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-08-2024 11:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 514 by Theodoric, posted 04-08-2024 4:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 510 of 536 (917451)
04-08-2024 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 509 by Phat
04-08-2024 10:50 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Well Tangle, I also hope that you get an opportunity to enjoy the solar eclipse in between your continued banter with (as you would phrase it) us nutters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Phat, posted 04-08-2024 10:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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