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Author | Topic: The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
We've done Tacitus, when are you going to show that the historical Jesus created the universe?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4597 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 10.0
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candle2 in Message 495 writes: Panties Pilate. Panties? Really, a Roman named Panties? He invented underwear, right?Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
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Percy Member Posts: 22929 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 7.2 |
Long ago we granted that for the sake of discussion in this thread the historical Jesus is a real person. Your task now is to show that the historical Jesus created the universe.
ICANT began this weird thread, and when he abandoned it you for some reason decided to take his place. Is his claim that it was the historical Jesus who created the universe one you really want to support? You mentioned faith earlier. Isn't it more the Jesus of faith who you believe created the universe? --Percy
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Marco Polo probably existed but he was certainly a fabulist.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4597 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
I heard he was a swimmer.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
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candle2 Member (Idle past 123 days) Posts: 892 Joined: |
Percy, another non-Biblical source concerning Christ and
Christians was recorded by Pliny the Younger, Roman Governor of Bithynia. Pliny wrote to Emperor Trajan asking for his counsel ondealing with the early Christian community. Pliny conducted trials of suspected Christians whoappeared before Him. It is suspected that they refused to acknowledge and worship Roman gods. In any case, after three chances to show their innocencethey were executed. Pliny went on to say that investigations often revealedharmless practices. However, Pliny considered them to be depraved, and filled with excessive superstition. Pliny was concerned that Christian gatherings couldserve as a potential starting point for sedition. This is an abbreviated reply of Pliny and Christians.
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Percy Member Posts: 22929 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 7.2 |
For this discussion it is assumed that Jesus was a historical personage.
--Percy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
...and we've done Pliny...
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4597 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
candle2 in Message 501 writes: Pliny wrote to Emperor Trajan asking for his counsel on dealing with the early Christian community. Was this before or after Jesus created the Universe? ​
candle2 in Message 501 writes: Pliny conducted trials of suspected Christians who appeared before Him. It is suspected that they refused to acknowledge and worship Roman gods. Was this before or after Jesus created the Universe? ​
candle2 in Message 501 writes: In any case, after three chances to show their innocence they were executed. Was this before or after Jesus created the Universe?
candle2 in Message 501 writes: Pliny went on to say that investigations often revealed harmless practices. However, Pliny considered them to be depraved, and filled with excessive superstition. Was this before or after Jesus created the Universe?
candle2 in Message 501 writes: Pliny was concerned that Christian gatherings could serve as a potential starting point for sedition. Was this before or after Jesus created the Universe? ​Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
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candle2 Member (Idle past 123 days) Posts: 892 Joined: |
Percy, you stated:
"For this discussion it is assumed that Jesus was ahistorical personage." ***This is exactly the point that ICANT, and several othersare making. Jesus was and still is a alive. The Bible confirms this. Since the Bible is right about Jesusliving and breathing, we must not readily dismiss the other claims that His Apostles and Prophets made about Him. We must also look at the OT prophecies made concerningJesus and their actual fulfillment in the NT. I get a chuckle when reading Paulk's reply concerningthe fulfillment of these predictions. The guy has a deep hate for Jesus, and this hate altershis cognitive reasoning. He hates Jesus because Satan has painted an extreme negative image of Him. I used to have this same negative image of Him. I hadthis image because I allowed others, including pastors, preachers, etc... to shape my thinking. God will reveal Himself and His plans for humanity, if onewill seek Him with all their heart--all of it. To accept that the Bible has been proven right about thefact that Jesus lived, while denying the rest of what the Bible teaches, is using false and premeditated logic.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 7.0
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Are you ever going to tell us whether the historical Jesus created the universe? Ever?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Percy Member Posts: 22929 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 7.2
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Please proceed with your evidence and arguments that the historical Jesus created the universe.
--Percy
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Percy writes:
To reiterate: Historical Jesus Please proceed with your evidence and arguments that the historical Jesus created the universe.Wiki: Based on this working definition, the "Historical Jesus" (was) widely considered to have once existed, been baptized,and was crucified. Thus the short answer is NO. The Jesus of Christian faith and belief was (and is) Gods eternal character. A Christian believes that God always existed and Trinitarians believe that Jesus (as human character) was in the beginning with the Father...long before the point in time where He was physically born. Thus we believe that the Jesus of Christian faith and tradition did initiate(create) the universe as we know it. Personally I believe that Jesus initiated matter as we know it. Beyond that simple belief, I'll let Cosmologists explain how the universe potentially evolved.
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Tany writes:
Without knowing Candles beliefs, I would guess that his answer to all of your questions is "after".. I don't think he really accepts the theory of a "Historical Jesus". (as I expounded on in my Wiki quote) Was this before or after Jesus created the Universe? As you ponder the wonder of the Sun being eclipsed by the moon and how the Sun itself is simply one of trillions of stars potentially existing, perhaps you can understand our (primitive) belief that matter was at one time initiated and did *not* always exist. I hope you and your wife have a relaxing yet exciting trip and that you feel better.
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Well Tangle, I also hope that you get an opportunity to enjoy the solar eclipse in between your continued banter with (as you would phrase it) us nutters.
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