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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
Theodoric
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Posts: 9361
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 331 of 537 (916476)
03-04-2024 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Phat
03-04-2024 3:59 PM


Re: Hypotheticals and hope for a rational consensus
have you asked him?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


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 Message 327 by Phat, posted 03-04-2024 3:59 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9361
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 332 of 537 (916477)
03-04-2024 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Phat
03-04-2024 3:56 PM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
You and he do not understand logic. Also, I did not realize the universe relied on logic. Do you have an argument why you think is to be?
ABE
The Sartre quote has nothing to do with the rest of your post.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 03-04-2024 3:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9538
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 333 of 537 (916478)
03-04-2024 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Phat
03-04-2024 3:56 PM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
Phat:
Not to get too philosophical in a "magic" thread, but RC Sprouls basic philosophical argument resonates with me. Basically he argues that in order for something to exist something always had to exist. If at any time there was nothing, logic dictates that there would now be nothing.
Logic has nothing to do with it.
Logic can't even explain what "nothing" is.
As soon as you get beyond high school physics you're beyond sitting in an armchair and mangling words to try to understand what's going on.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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dwise1
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Posts: 5987
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 334 of 537 (916479)
03-04-2024 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Phat
03-04-2024 3:56 PM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
My attitude towards philosophy:
Dammit, Jim! I'm an engineer, not a philosopher!
In the definition and redefining and argumentum ad dictionario (ie, an informal fallacy which I coined standing for relying on dictionary definitions for term), it becomes very clear that the sides of many of these conversations use words completely differently:
  • Scientific types, including engineers, use words to describe the world and how we find things to work. As a result, we must often create and adjust new definitions for describing something new. Of course, our newly created definitions are accompanied by explanations of those definitions: basically, "Here's this new thing we found. Let's call it by this name which kind of describes it and here is how we define that new name. Now let's discuss it."
  • Non-scientific types use words to redefine the world. They use definitions as long-established authorities which cannot be questioned even though they are very arbitrary. Practitioners include philosophers, theologians, apologists, and lawyers. Basically: "Here's the result I want, so let's see if I can find some definition that can get me that result. Or one that I can bend enough to get there. Accept it and don't you dare try to question it! Or think about it too much."
Though I may have given philosophers shrift that is too short. My overall opinion was changed by a video by our favorite deity, Mr. Deity (AKA Brian Dalton) in his Way of the Mister series.
Circa Time Mark 4:40, he points out a major difference between philosophy and apologetics. My summary (you can reference the horse's mouth at that time mark) is:
  • Philosophy's basic goal is to work out how to seek truth, which includes how to think, how to evaluate ideas and arguments, etc. Philosophy supports developing processes for starting from premises and developing them into logical chain of conclusions. IOW, you proceed from a starting point and arrive at a conclusion.
  • Apologetics takes the exact opposite approach: start with your conclusion and then cherry-pick whatever "evidences" (a strictly apologetics term) you can find to support your conclusion and ignore any and all actual evidence that contradicts your conclusion.
At 5:45, he says that philosophy is not about defending a position (which is all that apologetics is about), but rather philosophy is about challenging what we presume to know so that we can go on to discover new things. Which is the opposite of what Christians try to do through apologetics, described earlier as a practice of "prostituting philosophy." "Christian philosopher is almost an oxymoron."
Though actually the video I had seen was something of a "Part One" to that video, MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT: I'm Leaving Atheism!
Or not. Viewing it again, this one is an exercise in philosophobabble (similar to Star Trek's technobabble (listen closely to Geordi LaForge some time), only here for philosophy).
Watch it just for fun!

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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8613
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 335 of 537 (916480)
03-04-2024 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Phat
03-04-2024 3:56 PM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
Basically he argues that in order for something to exist something always had to exist.
Well, D'uh! Of course something has to precede the present thing. All we need do is look at the world around us to see that. Nothing ever just pops out of nothing.
Except in QFT. Then it happens all the time. Seems Gaia is not big on your philosophy.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 336 of 537 (916486)
03-05-2024 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by Omnivorous
03-04-2024 4:23 PM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
That's not an argument. It's a bare assertion stated twice.
So what makes it illogical? Falsify it.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005


(2)
Message 337 of 537 (916487)
03-05-2024 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Phat
03-05-2024 1:45 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
Thats not how anything works.
That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Bare assertions are just...meaningless and unconvincing. Like saying that "blue is obviously the superior color." People who already like blue will agree. Nobody else will be convinced, and there's no actual reason in that statement to suggest that blue is actually "better" in any way.
One doesn't need to "falsify" the proposition that blue is the superior color. There's no evidence or argument presented to falsify.
The interesting thing is that you actually could make an argument that there has always existed "something." Yours was an appeal to authority (that was the logical fallacy you asked for), but you can actually make a strong argument to that effect.
If you'd like a hint...it's in the Laws of Thermodynamics.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 338 of 537 (916488)
03-05-2024 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by dwise1
03-04-2024 5:37 PM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
Mister Deity simply refuses to even taste the Kool-aid. He can be annoying if you don't already think as he does.
Watch it just for fun!
Yeah why not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by dwise1, posted 03-04-2024 5:37 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2024 3:19 AM Phat has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5987
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 339 of 537 (916489)
03-05-2024 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by Phat
03-05-2024 2:45 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
Mister Deity simply refuses to even taste the Kool-aid.
Wrong. He used to drink it all the time. He's a "Formon" (former Mormon).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 2:45 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9538
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 340 of 537 (916490)
03-05-2024 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Phat
03-05-2024 1:45 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
Phat:
So what makes it illogical?
Logic has nothing to do with cosmology, almost everything about it is counterintuitive. Space is expanding, everything in the universe is moving away from everything else. But the universe is everything so what is it expanding into? Logic your way out of that one.
In the quantum world, things pop into existence "from nothing" (whatever that is) all the time. Almost nothing in the quantum world makes any normal logical sense. You can't think your way through this philosophically or logically.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 1:45 AM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9361
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 341 of 537 (916491)
03-05-2024 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Phat
03-05-2024 1:45 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
You have been here 21 years and you have learned nothing about science and argumentation. Nothing

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 1:45 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 9:21 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 342 of 537 (916496)
03-05-2024 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Theodoric
03-05-2024 7:05 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
What was it I was supposed to learn?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Theodoric, posted 03-05-2024 7:05 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 343 of 537 (916497)
03-05-2024 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Phat
03-05-2024 1:45 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
Phat writes:
That's not an argument. It's a bare assertion stated twice.

So what makes it illogical? Falsify it.
Look at it like this:
Let's look at your post in question again.
quote:
Basically he argues that in order for something to exist something always had to exist.
If at any time there was nothing, logic dictates that there would now be nothing.
If I construct a simple syllogism, like so:
All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore, Socrates is mortal.
True premises, sound logical structure.
Now identify what in your post corresponds to the premises above, and what to the conclusion? "Logic dictates" is empty handwaving, a rhetorical device. Logic is like an app for intellectual rigor, a spellcheck for reason, a hound on the trail of fallacies, but it's also garbage in, garbage out.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18450
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 344 of 537 (916498)
03-05-2024 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by dwise1
03-05-2024 3:19 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
Mormons never met Jesus. Formons can vary. Some drink the dogma of another belief. Some become atheists and join atheist clubs.
Some make videos. A good living, by the way

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 345 of 537 (916502)
03-05-2024 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by dwise1
03-04-2024 5:37 PM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
dwise1 writes:
Scientific types, including engineers, use words to describe the world and how we find things to work. As a result, we must often create and adjust new definitions for describing something new. Of course, our newly created definitions are accompanied by explanations of those definitions: basically, "Here's this new thing we found. Let's call it by this name with kind of describes it and here is how we define that new name. Now let's discuss it."

Non-scientific types use words to redefine the world. They use definitions as long-established authorities which cannot be questioned even though they are very arbitrary. Practitioners include philosophers, theologians, apologists, and lawyers. Basically: "Here's the result I want, so let's see if I can find some definition that can get me that result. Or one that I can bend enough to get there."
Precisely. Scientists work with the data. Apologists use rhetoric.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by dwise1, posted 03-04-2024 5:37 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
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