Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9173 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,557 Year: 4,814/9,624 Month: 162/427 Week: 75/85 Day: 12/12 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 4 of 536 (915774)
02-17-2024 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
02-16-2024 7:22 PM


This should be quick.
Prove the universe requires a god to create it.
Then solve the uncaused cause problem.
Then prove that the God 'what dun it' was a chap called Jesus born 2,000 years ago.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2024 7:22 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ICANT, posted 02-18-2024 1:55 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 39 of 536 (915819)
02-18-2024 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ICANT
02-18-2024 1:09 PM


Re: By the Numbers
(cough) What's this got to do with Jesus? (cough)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ICANT, posted 02-18-2024 1:09 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ICANT, posted 02-18-2024 2:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 44 of 536 (915827)
02-18-2024 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ICANT
02-18-2024 2:04 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
Everything if I am going to show that Jesus created everything that exists.
Let me know when you start.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ICANT, posted 02-18-2024 2:04 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Omnivorous, posted 02-18-2024 4:37 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 70 of 536 (915938)
02-20-2024 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ICANT
02-20-2024 1:25 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
I do believe there are translation errors in the Bible but no other kind.
It can be easily proven - I do mean proven - that there are errors in the bible that are not translation errors.
Have you ever read the New Testament horizontally? That is, take 4 bibles open at the gospels and read them one by one, side by side one paragraph at a time. If you don't want to try that yourself I can give you a link to Ehrman who has and you can check it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2024 1:25 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 02-20-2024 3:48 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2024 9:10 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 72 of 536 (915953)
02-20-2024 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Percy
02-20-2024 3:48 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Thanks Percy, that link doesn't open for mr :-(
Here's an Ehrman video of it
abe It does open but it takes time 300+ pages

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 02-20-2024 3:48 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 75 of 536 (915961)
02-21-2024 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by ICANT
02-20-2024 9:10 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
Which Greek Text and which Hebrew text?
It doesn't matter, pick any text in any language, whatever you prefer. If you prefer KJB, use 4 of those. Or use 4 different versions it doesn't matter. Just read the four authors side by side passage by passage. The differences are not caused by translation. They're differences in the stories themselves - not just textual differences, they're contradictions, some trivial some critical.
If you don't want to do that just watch someone who has done it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AymnA526j9U

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2024 9:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2024 9:01 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 77 of 536 (915968)
02-21-2024 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ICANT
02-21-2024 9:01 AM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
Oh, I see what you expect. You think they should have got in a backroom somewhere and made sure all of them wrote down the same things and we would have had one gospel instead of four.
Let me remind you of your claim.
ICANT:
I do believe there are translation errors in the Bible but no other kind
There are plenty of errors of the other kind, some totally contradictory. But I understand your reluctance to even find out about them. You didn't bother with the lecture did you?
Here it is again. I challenge you to watch it and maintain your statement
Had they done that I would not believe any of it.
Of course you would! You'd tell us that it must be true because the stories are so similar and they're so similar because they're inspired by god. You can have it both ways if you like but there are direct contradictions in the bible which means that only one version of events can be true (or both are false).

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2024 9:01 AM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Percy, posted 02-21-2024 9:45 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 83 of 536 (915990)
02-21-2024 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
02-21-2024 2:44 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
The first thing that has to be established is that Jesus is a Historical being.
ffs - that's another thread.
Look why don't we all agree - just for the sake of the argument - that a guy call Jesus actually did exist.
Now what?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2024 2:44 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Percy, posted 02-21-2024 3:12 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 89 by AZPaul3, posted 02-21-2024 4:27 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 105 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2024 7:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 93 of 536 (916000)
02-21-2024 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tanypteryx
02-21-2024 4:49 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Tany writes:
So, I guess that means he's never going to explain black holes for me.
You should be so lucky. He's a self taught pastor and builder - of course he's going to explain black holes to you. He's also going to tell you all about the physics of the beginning of the universe. Without the aid of maths. Or physics.
Can't wait to see Jesus get involved.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-21-2024 4:49 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-21-2024 5:18 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 02-21-2024 5:20 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 114 of 536 (916027)
02-22-2024 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by ICANT
02-21-2024 7:36 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
Agreeing for the sake of argument does not prove that He existed.
Well you sure got me there pastor. Do'h!
We're having the 'did he exist argument' elsewhere so here we're saying 'for the sake of this discussion here let's all assume Jesus existed', now show us how he created the universe.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2024 7:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by ICANT, posted 02-22-2024 10:01 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 125 of 536 (916046)
02-22-2024 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by ICANT
02-22-2024 10:01 AM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
I have to prove He existed first because if He did,'t exist He could not create anything.
Sheesh!
Let's try this another way, given that some people here already accept a Jesus that walked the earth 2,000 years ago please now show them how this Jesus created the universe.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ICANT, posted 02-22-2024 10:01 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 155 of 536 (916098)
02-24-2024 4:44 AM


Can we please get to the stated thesis of this thread - Jesus created the universe - it doesn't matter what size it was, let's see the how you intend to demonstrate that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Phat, posted 02-24-2024 6:20 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 158 of 536 (916101)
02-24-2024 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Phat
02-24-2024 6:20 AM


Phat writes:
How can any of us believers demonstrate the power behind our belief?
ICANT presumably believes that HECAN (sic) as he opened this thread with
ICANT:
In this thread I will discuss Jesus roll in the creationn of the universe and His Physical roll on earth.
So let's see him do it please.
You have already rationally concluded that it is all in our heads. NOTHING that we do or say will change your mind at this point.
Why do you keep repeating this nonsense - over and over again. Despite everything we say, nothing gets through. You understand nothing about thinking. Really nothing. You can't keep information you get in your head and process it so you can't understand any position but your own. I'm not asking you to agree, just UNDERSTAND. You can't seem to understand our position.
Of course you can change our minds! We're not religionists whose minds can't be changed no matter what. Just look at K.Rose - he tells you that his belief can not be changed by anything. You get the impression that if Jesus Christ himself appeared in front of him and told him that of course the earth is more that 7,000 years old he's tell him to piss off. Because he knows; he believes.
Just give us some evidence - all it takes to change our minds is a reason. Your belief and K.Rose's belief and the Muslim's belief and the Hindu's belief is in your heads alone. That isn't going to change anybody else's ideas about the world is it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Phat, posted 02-24-2024 6:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 213 of 536 (916171)
02-25-2024 5:34 PM


So far - 200+ posts later - the reverend hasn't made a single attempt to address the subject of his own topic.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-25-2024 5:41 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 221 of 536 (916183)
02-26-2024 9:23 AM


I see that Mike the Wizz is back (elsewhere) and appears to have lost what little there was of his mind.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024