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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1 of 537 (915771)
02-16-2024 7:22 PM


Percy since you don't like the way I am debating in the Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman I am proposing this new Thread.
In this thread I will discuss Jesus roll in the creationn of the universe and His Physical roll on earth.
In Message 334 Taq said:
Taq writes:
We don't need to know where the universe came from in order to conclude that the universe began as a dense region of energy that expanded outwards.
That pen point or pea sized universe could not contain enough energy to create the entire universe and everything in it as there are billions of Galaxies known to exist in the universe now.
I will agree that you don't have to know the origin of the universe to know that it came from a lot of energy that had to come from somewhere that the universe and everything in it was formed out of.
He also said:
Taq writes:
In the same way, we don't need to know where energy and matter came from in order to understand how clouds form. You might as well claim that germs causing disease is an assumption because we don't know where the energy for the universe came from.
Clouds forming don't have anything to do with the amount of energy required to form all the stars, planets, billions of Galaxies in the universe.
Therefore you need a source for the energy to create the universe and everything in it. No energy no universe.
If Taq is correct and I think he is and the "universe began as a dense region of energy that expanded outwards. It requires a dense region of energy to start with existing somewhere.
My question is where did that energy come from and science says "we don't know".
I want to find the answer to that question.
God Bless,
I will be using the Bible so place it anywhere you like that I can use it.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 02-17-2024 1:24 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 02-17-2024 1:29 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 6 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2024 1:41 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 7 by NosyNed, posted 02-17-2024 1:55 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 9 by GDR, posted 02-17-2024 2:24 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 11 of 537 (915781)
02-17-2024 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Admin
02-17-2024 2:00 PM


Re: Moderator Error
Hi Percy,
As I said at the bottom of the post, it does not matter where it is as long as I can use the Bible, and talk about creation. Message 1
I will discuss the universe as being created by a historical Jesus.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Admin, posted 02-17-2024 2:00 PM Admin has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 14 of 537 (915786)
02-17-2024 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by NosyNed
02-17-2024 1:55 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Ni Ned,
ned writes:
Show your calculations.
I don't have any I just ask google this question, how many galaxies in the universe?
This is what I got and they go up to 2 trillion in the observed universe.
quote:
It is estimated that there are between 200 billion (2×1011) to 2 trillion galaxies in the observable universe. Most galaxies are 1,000 to 100,000 parsecs in diameter (approximately 3,000 to 300,000 light years) and are separated by distances on the order of millions of parsecs (or megaparsecs).
They are going on the results of the last telescope upgrade.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by NosyNed, posted 02-17-2024 1:55 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 02-17-2024 7:48 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 02-17-2024 7:50 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 17 of 537 (915789)
02-17-2024 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by GDR
02-17-2024 2:24 PM


Re: Does it matter
Hi GDR,
GDR writes:
basing Christianity on your particular way of understanding the Bible.
GDR I don't claim nor have I ever claimed to be a Christian.
I do claim to be a born again child of the King
A Christian is a person who is living a life like Jesus did and I don't know anybody that is living a sinless perfect life.
GDR writes:
It appears to me that you understand the Bible as being a collection of books that were more or less dictated by God.
No. The only persons I believe could have had any type of dictation was Moses on the mountain and Paul in the desert. everybody else was allowed to use their experiences and teachings they received from Jesus in His personal teachings during His ministry. Along with their observations. Matthew wrote as a tax collector and historian. Mark wrote as a slave. Luke wrote as a physician. John wrote as a family member. Paul wrote as a pharisee who had an encounter with Jesus and was born again and was determined to do as good a job at the latter as he had done as the former. He wrote about the Pharisee's but he wrote to the gentiles as that was his mission.
GDR writes:
It doesn't matter whether or not God created the physical world.
Maybe it don't matter to you but it does to me, Genesis 1:1 states:
quote:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
In Hebrew that is a declarative statement of the completed action of the verb by the subject of the of the verb which resulted in the heavens and the earth existing as a completed product.
If that statement is not correct God is a Liar or He does not exist since He can not lie.
So, yes it is very important.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by GDR, posted 02-17-2024 2:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 02-18-2024 12:24 AM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 28 by GDR, posted 02-18-2024 12:25 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 33 by Percy, posted 02-18-2024 7:54 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 18 of 537 (915790)
02-17-2024 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by GDR
02-17-2024 2:24 PM


Re: Does it matter
double post

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by GDR, posted 02-17-2024 2:24 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 02-17-2024 8:46 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 20 of 537 (915792)
02-17-2024 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Percy
02-17-2024 7:50 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
We think all matter in the universe was once in the same place around 13.8 billion years ago by projecting the current motion of galaxies backward in time.
I know it was all in one place at one time it was just a lot bigger place than a pen point or a pea sized universe.
Percy writes:
And we're pretty sure the universe is bigger than just the parts we can see, so there are probably far more than that.
Every time they work on the telescope the known universe gets bigger.
The problem is that scientist can only fathom the universe being only 13.8 billion years old.
If you remember back in 2008 I made the statement 'I believe the universe has always existed in some form just not necessarily as we see it today'.
I haven't changed my mind. So since the energy has always existed in essence the universe has always existed and we will never see the end of it.
That is one thing Einstein was correct about believing the universe always existed. If he could have met me after 1950 before he Died I would have made him a happy man.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 02-17-2024 7:50 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 02-17-2024 9:38 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 02-18-2024 8:03 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 62 by Taq, posted 02-20-2024 12:08 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 21 of 537 (915793)
02-17-2024 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by AZPaul3
02-17-2024 8:46 PM


Re: Does it matter
Hi Paul,
AZPaul3 writes:
Reality seems to favor the latter.
If what you believe was true the universe would not exist;
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 02-17-2024 8:46 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by AZPaul3, posted 02-17-2024 8:59 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 23 of 537 (915795)
02-17-2024 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by AZPaul3
02-17-2024 7:48 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Hi Paul,
AZPaul3 writes:
BTW, 2 trillion galaxies is on the conservative side.
And you think that little pea sized universe had enough energy packed into it to create every thing in 2 trillion Galaxies + how many more trillion may be out there.
Or are you believing in Guth's Zero energy universe that can just continue building Galaxies? You do know his zero universe never gained any traction?
God Bless

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 02-17-2024 7:48 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Taq, posted 02-20-2024 11:54 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 24 of 537 (915796)
02-17-2024 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by AZPaul3
02-17-2024 8:59 PM


Re: Does it matter
Hi Paul,
AZPaul3 writes:
Yet, it does, just as required.
Yes the universe does exist in spite of what you believe.
Now if you could give me the source of the energy that existed in that little pea sized universe that expanded unto our present universe you could really impress me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by AZPaul3, posted 02-17-2024 8:59 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 26 of 537 (915798)
02-17-2024 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by PaulK
02-17-2024 1:29 PM


Hi PaulK,
PaulK writes:
Jesus of Faith
You think of Jesus like most people do.
I think of Him like Matthew the tax collector who had all the history of the Israelites.
Matthew writes:
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
So this man called Jesus was God in the flesh. I believe He was God.
John writes:
10:30 I and my Father are one.
This is the reason the Jews killed Him, He claimed to be God.
John writes:
1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John says the Word which is Jesus/God created everything that exists
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 02-17-2024 1:29 PM PaulK has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 29 of 537 (915801)
02-18-2024 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
02-17-2024 9:38 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Hi AZ,
AZPaul3 writes:
Numbers like 28 billion and more are being hypothesized.
When they get to eternal they will have arrived at the right number.
AZPaul3 writes:
You said it couldn't. How do you know? Where's your evidence?
There is 10^69 joules of mass and energy in the visible universe.
That don't cover the added Galaxies that was just discovered.
There is no way to put 10^69 joules of mass and energy in something the size of a pea. that can only be done by the imagination of a man so far as there is no mechanism to accomplish that feat.
You give me the mechanism and I will figure out why it still won't fit.
An assumption is not a mechanism.
Wait a minute I will go ahead and tell you why that pea sized universe can't hold the 10^69 joules of mass and energy that it would take to produce the visible
universe we see today.
At T=0 There was no existence. No time, no space, no vacuum, no pea sized universe, no energy, and no mass.
So anything that began to exist quintillionth of a second later had to come from somewhere to begin to exist.
The only it began to exist was in someone's mind. Then assumed to be there.
AZPaul3 writes:
What is the energy balance of the ICANT universe?
Energy is unlimited and can be added at any time necessary.
AZPaul3 writes:
If you don't, then why?
Most cosmologist don't accept Guth's hypothesis why should I?
AZPaul3 writes:
I'm not here to impress you. This is your thread, Reverend. You say it cannot be done. Why?
You could have fooled me that you were not trying to impress me, or are you just trying to intimidate me?
In my universe there is no problem to do anything, but if you
have an unlimited supply of energy why cram it into such a small space when you can add all that is needed at any time.
It seems like in your little universe everything you think is a fact.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 02-17-2024 9:38 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-18-2024 2:52 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 35 by Percy, posted 02-18-2024 8:44 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 30 of 537 (915802)
02-18-2024 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by GDR
02-18-2024 12:25 AM


Re: Does it matter
Hi GDR,
GDR writes:
Remember it is Christianity and not Biblianity.
The word christian only appears 3 times in the bible.
In Acts 11:26 The disciples were called little Christos because they were living a life like Christ did. Are you living a life like Christ did? He was perfect I am far from perfect yet, I won't be perfect until I inhabit my new body.
GDR writes:
Essentially you place your understanding of the Bible over what Jesus taught and did.
Would you please explain where I misquoted the scriptures or mis-represented what they say. Don't be bashful about it I can take constructive criticism any time.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by GDR, posted 02-18-2024 12:25 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 02-18-2024 7:02 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 31 of 537 (915803)
02-18-2024 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
02-17-2024 1:24 PM


Hi Charley,
Was you beginning to think I was not going to answer you?
Tangle writes:
This should be quick.

Prove the universe requires a god to create it.
Then solve the uncaused cause problem.
Then prove that the God 'what dun it' was a chap called Jesus born 2,000 years ago.
I guess you were not around when I told cavediver if Hawking's instanton was
what expanded into our universe that instanton would be God. But there was no place for it to begin to exist.
Just like there is no place for a pea sized universe to exist as there is nothing outside of it as all of the universe is inside that little pen point.
So either we have a God that supplied the energy to create our universe.
Or we are brains in a jar is a lab somewhere.
Or we are an experiment in an alien's lab we call earth.
That chap you called Jesus and God the Father are 1 and the same, according to John and Jesus.
I don't have an uncaused problem is eternal in existence.
According to science the universe had a beginning to exist
If the universe was eternal in existence it would be dead by now.
God Bless,.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 02-17-2024 1:24 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 36 of 537 (915814)
02-18-2024 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Percy
02-18-2024 8:03 AM


Re: By the Numbers
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
And you know this how?
Well lets see if we can figure that one out.
There was non-existence at T=0.
1 quintillionth or a little more of a second there had to be at least 10^69 joules of mass and energy to produce in the now visible visible universe plus all of the universe that has not been seen yet.
There is no process available now to put that much energy into a hot dense region of volume as small as a pea.
Now when you don't have any energy to put in that volume you are never going to get any energy into the volume the size of a pea, or into a volume the size of the known universe.
If you don't have energy to put in you can't get energy out, can you fix that problem scientifically?
The only way you can fix the problem is to assume the energy that expanded into our universe was able to begin to exist from non-existence.
Percy answer this question for me, if you were to take the processor out of your computer could you get anything out of it but parts of the computer?
Now let ask one more question. If you did not have a computer, could you get anything out of your computer?
Never mind I will answer them for you. The answers are No. and No.
This one I can't answer for you. Explain to me how you can have a hot dense little volume holding the universe when there is no existence at T=0.
The only way you can get it there is to assume it is there.
Percy writes:
Untrue. The improved telescopes can resolve objects further away than ever before, but the observable universe never gets bigger. In fact, it can only get smaller. The universe is expanding and the expansion is accelerating. More and more of the universe is moving away from us faster than the speed of light, so its light can never reach us.
Explain how the universe is moving away from us. As I understand it the Milky Way is moving at the speed of light from the place it formed at. The galaxy that formed ahead of the Milky Way that is headed in the same direction at the speed of light so how can it be running away from us if both are traveling at the same speed?
In other words you are saying we can see more of the universe with the improved telescopes but since we can't see it with the natural eye it is not observable. Then what are they wasting money building bigger and better telescopes for?
Percy writes:
You're free to believe whatever you like.
Thanks for your permission and you can do the same but neither of us can change the facts by what we believe. Facts don't change.
There is no scientific answer for the source of the energy that existed at 10-34 and began to expand.
Is that fact or fiction?
Percy writes:
He might even have found it hilarious.
Yes it might have caused him to laugh uncontrollable as he had tried everything to make the universe to be eternal and static which he believed until it was proven that the universe was not static.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 02-18-2024 8:03 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Percy, posted 02-18-2024 12:27 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 38 of 537 (915818)
02-18-2024 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Percy
02-18-2024 8:44 AM


Re: By the Numbers
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
Where does your figure come from?
My AI bot.
I had him run it again and this is what he spit out.
Using (E = mc^2): [ E_{\text{ordinary matter}} = (4.9 \times 10^{53} , \text{kg}) \times (3 \times 10^8 , \text{m/s})^2 ]
Adding these components together, we get the total known energy in the universe:
[ E_{\text{total}} = E_{\text{dark energy}} + E_{\text{ordinary matter}} ]
Now, let’s calculate the numerical values and express them in joules:
[ E_{\text{total}} \approx 1.1 \times 10^{69} , \text{J} ]
He came up with the same answer.
He is using everything known in the universe.
Percy writes:
What is the maximum density for mass and energy permitted by physical laws?
The core of a neutron star is the most intensely dense objects we know of in the cosmos, and has a 6 mile radius and would weigh 1 billion tones on earth and there is thought to be a billion in the Milkey Way.
Percy writes:
One possibility is that quantum fluctuations produced the energy for the Big Bang from nothing, but I don't believe there's a consensus about where the energy for the Big Bang came from yet. It might help to think of the Big Bang not as the origin of the universe but as only the beginning of the universe as we know it.
But quantum fluctuations would need a vacuum to pop into existence, so existence would be required before that could happen.
I been trying for at least 16 years to get you and others to understand that what is described in the narrative put forth is only a process during the forming and filling of the earth that took place on the way to where we are today.
I don't know if you remember the night cavediver said we needed a new theory or not but if memory serves me right it was before 2014.
Percy writes:
Isn't being able to add unlimited energy at any time the opposite of what you just claimed about T=0?
But yes being able to insert energy into the universe as needed would be the opposite of the BBT as every thing is in the pea sized universe that would not hold the core of 1 neutron star of which there are a billion in the Milky Way.
I make no such claim about T=0 as I don' believe that T=0 ever was as I believe the universe has always existed in some form just not as we observe it today.
Cavediver, Son Goku and several others pounded it into my memory that nothing existed outside of the universe it was self contained and nothing existed at T-0.
So when I mention T=0 I am just repeating what I have been told about it.
I just checked and nothing has changed about T=0 we don't know what if anything existed at T=0.
I Believe that an eternal existence exist and what ever that existence is it would have to be composed of pure energy thus capable of anything. I don't know what you would call something that was pure energy but I call it God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Percy, posted 02-18-2024 8:44 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 02-18-2024 1:14 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 42 by Percy, posted 02-18-2024 2:29 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
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