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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 12 of 536 (915782)
02-17-2024 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by GDR
02-17-2024 2:24 PM


Re: Does it matter
What matters is the life in the world that perceives and experiences this physical world in a particular way with the senses we have been given.
Matters? To whom? In what way?
More importantly than that though is the creation of conscious life, and further, conscious life capable of empathy, and morality.
More important? See above.
All the evidence we can see indicates the thin film of slime that is life covering this planet is just a side result of the forces involved in this universe's main task of making suns. This universe appears well tuned for making suns, not life. This universe appears to have no care for life.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

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 Message 9 by GDR, posted 02-17-2024 2:24 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 15 of 536 (915787)
02-17-2024 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ICANT
02-17-2024 7:23 PM


Re: By the Numbers
"could not contain enough energy"
That is the calculation you are asked to show. How much energy was there and why could it not fit in the new universe?
BTW, 2 trillion galaxies is on the conservative side.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2024 7:23 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2024 9:07 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 19 of 536 (915791)
02-17-2024 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ICANT
02-17-2024 8:14 PM


Re: Does it matter
If that statement is not correct God is a Liar or He does not exist ...
Reality seems to favor the latter.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2024 8:14 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2024 8:53 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 22 of 536 (915794)
02-17-2024 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ICANT
02-17-2024 8:53 PM


Re: Does it matter
Yet, it does, just as required.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2024 8:53 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 25 of 536 (915797)
02-17-2024 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICANT
02-17-2024 8:48 PM


Re: By the Numbers
The problem is that scientist can only fathom the universe being only 13.8 billion years old.
Then the problem doesn't exist. You haven't kept up. JWST came on line and has rocked the universe. 13.8 is still the consensus but the deep field studies are throwing up some surprising results. Numbers like 28 billion and more are being hypothesized. Cosmologists are in their happy place building new models and salivating over new studies. This is a most glorious time for cosmologists. You're missing out.
And you think that little pea sized universe had enough energy packed into it to create every thing in 2 trillion Galaxies + how many more trillion may be out there.
You said it couldn't. How do you know? Where's your evidence?
Or are you believing in Guth's Zero energy universe that can just continue building Galaxies?
If you don't, then why? This is ICANT cosmology. What is the energy balance of the ICANT universe?
Now if you could give me the source of the energy that existed in that little pea sized universe that expanded unto our present universe you could really impress me.
I'm not here to impress you. This is your thread, Reverend. You say it cannot be done. Why?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2024 8:48 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ICANT, posted 02-18-2024 12:40 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 46 of 536 (915837)
02-18-2024 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Omnivorous
02-18-2024 4:37 PM


Re: By the Numbers
This is a religion thread. He is allowed to use scripture in place of evidence. He is allowed to interpret that scripture to fit his desired narrative. He can magic away any objections. He can lie. This will not be discussion. This will be proselytizing.
We can expect some comedic value but no knowledge or enlightenment.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

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 Message 45 by Omnivorous, posted 02-18-2024 4:37 PM Omnivorous has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 79 of 536 (915971)
02-21-2024 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Percy
02-21-2024 9:45 AM


Re: By the Numbers
I can't see how ICANT is making any progress toward demonstrating that Jesus created the universe.
While ICANT is busy with this sideshow let me directly and succinctly answer this in his stead.
Did Jesus create the universe? Yes.
How? Magic.
QED
Now ICANT needn't be sidelined by the minutia of the main topic.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

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 Message 78 by Percy, posted 02-21-2024 9:45 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 89 of 536 (915996)
02-21-2024 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Tangle
02-21-2024 2:51 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Look why don't we all agree - just for the sake of the argument - that a guy call Jesus actually did exist.

Now what?
Like I said: Jesus ... magic ... universe.
Other than some minor details that may be raised like a talking snake or an explanation of the CMB this pretty much exhausts the entire topic from a religious view.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 91 of 536 (915998)
02-21-2024 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ICANT
02-21-2024 3:32 PM


Re: By the Numbers
It also seems that a consensus is respected by the scientific community.
We respect a consensus of scientists ... not a consensus of christian apologists.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2024 3:32 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 02-21-2024 5:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 152 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2024 10:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 102 of 536 (916009)
02-21-2024 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
02-21-2024 5:15 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Get back to us with your *scientific* results. I can hardly wait!
I can't. This is a religion thread. We can't do science here, only majik.
So the results of your set up would be: Two groups ... majik ... the answer.
Do they have to be apologists or can they simply be pastors, elders, and leaders who have been saved longer than a year.
Doesn't matter. Religionists are religionists whether they are singing in the choir or writing apologetics.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 02-21-2024 5:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2024 8:56 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 113 of 536 (916024)
02-22-2024 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by ICANT
02-21-2024 8:56 PM


Re: By the Numbers
If we can't deal with the truth in a religious thread where can we deal with it?
In a stand-up comic act on Comedy Central. Religion threads are, by definition, fantasy. No truth to them.
We have stuff evolving with no way to begin to exist but Magic.
In your intellectually stunted state we can understand such perception errors.
We have a universe beginning to exist without a source of energy but magic.
The universe definitely had plenty of energy to work with, ICANT. But it wasn't your majik what brung it. It may have been the vacuum energy of space itself that rushed in to fill the void left when the inflaton field quiesced. A stark phase transition. We haven't made that solid in theory, yet, but we know whatever happened was not religious so was not from any majik.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2024 8:56 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 154 of 536 (916097)
02-23-2024 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ICANT
02-23-2024 10:41 PM


Re: By the Numbers
How many of them believe in God? That you trust.

If they don't then their opinion would be biased.
Only in your twisted fantasy world where everything must conclude god regardless of the evidence. You go into discussion with your steel-trap mind already rusted shut. As usual you try to project your own stupidity onto the rest of reality.
This is where religion fails humanity. You insist on fantasy rather than reality. You insist on falsehoods rather than truth.
If we follow where the evidence leads your fantasies do not exist outside your tortured injured head.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2024 10:41 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by ICANT, posted 02-24-2024 10:16 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 157 of 536 (916100)
02-24-2024 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Phat
02-24-2024 6:20 AM


In a way, you are daring our Higher Power to show you evidence.
Daring? We DEMAND you show the evidence! Daring, my ass.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Phat, posted 02-24-2024 6:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 164 of 536 (916110)
02-24-2024 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by ICANT
02-24-2024 10:16 AM


Re: By the Numbers
If you got some evidence as to where the energy came from that existed nowhere ...
No one can answer that question with precision. You know that. And, as usual with religionists, you think our lack of knowledge is proof of your god. Yours is a god borne of ignorance.
Your insistence that we know everything before your god dies is rejected. We know enough to have killed the concept of gods many many times over these last 200 years and we have done just that. You have no ghosts to pray to except those imagined in the darkest depths of your inferior mind.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by ICANT, posted 02-24-2024 10:16 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by ICANT, posted 02-24-2024 1:26 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 169 of 536 (916118)
02-24-2024 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by ICANT
02-24-2024 1:26 PM


Re: By the Numbers
I know you can't answer that question and it is because you don't have any evidence that it did exist.
We can't say for certain how the initial energy came to be in this universe but we know that it did. We physically observe the after effects. We have an actual picture of those after effects.
A part of your intellectual failings is the inability to acknowledge the logic of our models as evidence. No, we cannot see the photon jump quantum orbitals but our models say it must and the universe appears to operate as such.
Our models also tell us what happened to create the CMB and the state of the universe prior. And the universe appears to operate as those models have revealed. So, yes, we have more than sufficient evidence that the workings of this universe from T=10-33 on to the present are well known to us.
I know you are too ignorant to understand the logic, reasoning, math, science that makes this so. Unfortunately, I am too ignorant to adequately explain it to you.
So when I present evidence you will say that is no evidence.
That depends on the quality of your evidence. Your WORD will not suffice. Give us the mathematical models that describe the processes you propose. Show us the logic from those models that evidence your claims. Give us the strict treatment of fact and logic that you demand of us.
My God is not going to die He is eternal.
Your god died centuries ago. Unfortunately, the stench of the rotting corpse is still with us.
And no you have no proof that God does not exist all you have is ASSUMPTIONS.
Still squirming with the "prove a negative" crap. Your logic is pathetic.
I gave you historical evidence that Jesus did exist and walk on earth you just will not accept anything I say or prove to be true.
I've seen no proof or truth from any of your supposed evidences.
Regardless, in deference to Tangle, I will not dispute this BS. You can get on with your argument that your supposed historical Jesus created something.
You have made up your mind what you believe and facts are not going to interfere with your faith in what you believe.
Idiocy, Reverend. The preponderance of the facts, the evidence, replaces faith with reality. You are the one for whom facts mean nothing when they interfere with your faith. You're trying to hide behind your projections again.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by ICANT, posted 02-24-2024 1:26 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 02-24-2024 3:57 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 179 by ICANT, posted 02-24-2024 9:36 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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