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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 3 of 536 (915773)
02-17-2024 1:09 PM


ICANT in Message 1 writes:
I will be using the Bible so place it anywhere you like that I can use it.
I'm baffled why this would be in a science forum.
Jesus is fictional and cannot be shown to be historical and he isn't mentioned anywhere in the bible's genesis.
There is exactly the same evidence that Harry Potter created the Universe as Jesus.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by ChemEngineer, posted 03-12-2024 9:12 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 32 of 536 (915805)
02-18-2024 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by ICANT
02-18-2024 12:40 AM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT in Message 29 writes:
There is no way to put 10^69 joules of mass and energy in something the size of a pea. that can only be done by the imagination of a man so far as there is no mechanism to accomplish that feat.
Ok, I see what you're saying here.
When they get to eternal they will have arrived at the right number.
Man, that's really clever, if the time dimension is eternal, then 10^59 joules might fit into that pea sized thing. And if it's eternal you don't have to do any messy math, nope sorry, no math needed.
I've been trying to understand fields and how much of the matter seems to be composed of fields that make it seem to have structure but that's an illusion and really it's empty space. Maybe you've got some experiments that will figure that one out?
So, what do you think about black holes? I'm trying to figure out why the event horizon doesn't cut off gravity just like it does light? I mean, the speed of light and gravity are the same, so something is fishy! And then there's the questions about what must actually be in there, it's gotta be either an extra dense neutron star or it's shrunk down to nothing, but there must be something because we've picked up the signal of gravity wave pulses when 2 black holes merged. Do you think the gravity pulse was caused by the event horizons colliding or the cores colliding? And apparently black holes can spin really, really fast and they can actually drag nearby space. I bet the probability of 2 black holes that are merging with each other spinning in the same direction is low.
I was just reading about multiple gravity wave detection systems proposed in the next 10+ years. It turns out you have to design your system to be sensitive to specific bands, different detectors would be listening to specific cosmic events events, mostly big, heavy stuff crashing into each other. Man, there's an amazing amount of information in these signals about these objects. And are there enough of these mergers of massive bodies in the visible Universe to provide a background gravity wave humm that can be used to probe for undetected structure in the Universe? I have been trying to get both my grandkids interested in this field.
Oh yeah, before I forget, does the 10^59 joules include what's inside all the black holes in the Universe?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ICANT, posted 02-18-2024 12:40 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 90 of 536 (915997)
02-21-2024 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by AZPaul3
02-21-2024 4:27 PM


Re: By the Numbers
this pretty much exhausts the entire topic from a religious view.
So, I guess that means he's never going to explain black holes for me.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by AZPaul3, posted 02-21-2024 4:27 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 02-21-2024 5:08 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 95 of 536 (916002)
02-21-2024 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Tangle
02-21-2024 5:08 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Tangle in Message 93 writes:
Without the aid of maths. Or physics.

Can't wait to see Jesus get involved.
Me neither! Jesus don't need no stankin' physics!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 02-21-2024 5:08 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 02-21-2024 5:21 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 111 of 536 (916022)
02-21-2024 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ICANT
02-21-2024 9:54 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT in Message 110 writes:
Space behind them is expanding at the speed of light. Space then is expanding at the speed of light in front of us. Space is expanding at the speed of light behind us causing them to be speeding away from us at the speed of light,
I just have to ask, how do you tell which direction is in front or behind you in space? is it just whatever is behind your head?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2024 9:54 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2024 9:17 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(2)
Message 130 of 536 (916055)
02-22-2024 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Percy
02-22-2024 6:01 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Percy in Message 129 writes:
Your quote, which is from an article in the October, 1998, issue of Scientific American titled Galaxies behind the Milky Way isn't about the movement of the Milky Way but about the Local Group, which is a group of relatively nearby galaxies that are gravitationally bound to one another.
Also, talking about galaxies "behind the Milky Way" refers to galaxies that are partly hidden from us by the gas, dust, and stars of the bulk of the Milky Way, playing peekaboo as it were.
And also, ICANT doesn't seem to realize that space is expanding here and everywhere along our line of sight to a distant galaxy, so the expansion rate adds up, and the apparent recession rate is higher and higher the further apart they get. So, the expansion stays the same rate within each light year segment along that line of sight to that distant galaxy, but they are receding from each other at at an increasing rate, because the expansion is causing more light year segments.
What's actually causing the expansion is the mystery astrophysicist types want to understand. To me it is starting to look more like a feature of the Universe, built in or developing over time rather than the coasting from a Big Bang "explosion." I'm still trying to figure if the cosmologists/astrophysicists are saying that the expansion of the Big Bang is the same event or effect as "Inflation?"
Is the Big Bang an event or an ongoing process?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Percy, posted 02-22-2024 6:01 PM Percy has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 139 of 536 (916082)
02-23-2024 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by ICANT
02-23-2024 9:17 AM


Re: By the Numbers
I should not be, but I'm amazed that you think you answered the question that I asked AND that you even quoted.
Tanypteryx in Message 111 writes:
ICANT in Message 110 writes:
Space behind them is expanding at the speed of light. Space then is expanding at the speed of light in front of us. Space is expanding at the speed of light behind us causing them to be speeding away from us at the speed of light,
I just have to ask, how do you tell which direction is in front or behind you in space? is it just whatever is behind your head?
ICANT in Message 131 writes:
That would depend on the direction you left the starting point. If I under stand what was supposed to have happen the space began to expand in every direction at once.
What are you talking about? Everything is at the same starting point.
Do you understand that WITHOUT A REFERENCE POINT YOU CANNOT SAY WHAT IS IN FRONT OR BEHIND YOU OTHER THAN WHAT IS IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE AND WHAT IS BEHIND YOUR HEAD? IF YOU SWIVEL YOUR HEAD SOMETHING ELSE ID IN FRONT AND BEHIND YOU.
The expansion of space does not impart a velocity on matter (objects) embedded in space, rather it adds space between objects which makes them recede from each other as time goes on, but that does not create velocity within the local space of the objects.
70 km/sec per Mega parsec (Mpc= 3,260,000 light years) is an approximation of the rate of expansion, so that means that if we look at 2 galaxies that are 1 Mpc apart they will be receding from each other at 70 km every second. Front and behind have no meaning in this situation.
*
ICANT in Message 131 writes:
That little universe was 1 billionth the size of an atom when it started to expand.
This has no influence on assigning directions with out a stationary reference to objects in space, which was my question.
ICANT in Message 131 writes:
I know that number is way too small but you can probably get an idea of how many little somethings had to come out of that thing that was one billionth the size of an atom.
This doesn't address my question and it demonstrates a flaw in your understanding of BBT. Nothing came out of that thing that was one billionth the size of an atom, instead the thing that was one billionth the size of an atom, grew larger.
ICANT in Message 131 writes:
Now as that space began to expand between those little somethings each little somethings on exact opposite outsides by the time the first atom formed
OK, that sounds simple to understand. So please point out the "exact opposite outsides" from our position right here and now. And exactly where is "outside"
If my understanding is correct, when we look in any direction, the furthest objects we can see (with JWST) are early galaxies a bit more than 13 billion light years away, AND when someone on one of those objects points their JWST in any direction, they also see objects that are a bit over 13 billion light years way from them. So, as counter-intuitive as it seems no galaxy is closer to the "boundary (outside) of the Universe" than any other galaxy. AND, even more mind blowing, the center of the Universe is the whole volume of the Universe!
ICANT in Message 131 writes:
Now if space is expanding between each of these little somethings at the speed of light how do trillions of them get together to form anything? Help

That really sounds preposterous to me.
Yep, that sounds preposterous because it is preposterous. The estimates from different observations are that the expansion rate is ~70km every second, per every megaparsec. So objects 3,260,000 light years (1 megaparsec) apart are getting 70 km further apart every second. Object 2 megaparsecs apart are receding from each other at 140 km every second. As the distance increases, obviously so does the recession speed.
* ABE: I also wanted to point out, if we rotate our position 180 degrees and look at an object the same distance away, but in the opposite direction we will see that we seem to be receding from it at the same rate as the from the first object. SO, WE ARE RECEDING AT THE SAME RATE FROM OBJECTS AT THE SAME DISTANCE, BUT FROM EVERY DIRECTION! WOW!
So, which direction are we moving, again?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2024 9:17 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 141 of 536 (916084)
02-23-2024 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ICANT
02-23-2024 11:43 AM


Re: Focusing on the clear and simple
ICANT in Message 138 writes:
Literally they have been taught they are animals and they have started to act like animals and we wonder what is wrong with our country.
Which specific animal would you say they are acting like?
Every single behavior you listed are only demonstrated in humans, it's human behavior. All the behaviors you hate are a part of every generation but on a planet with 8+ billion people there are an increasing number of people doing things you hate, so you see more behavior you hate. There are more people doing good things, too.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2024 11:43 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 178 of 536 (916132)
02-24-2024 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by ICANT
02-24-2024 7:42 PM


Re: By the Numbers
So, 177 posts in this thread and still no Jesus did it model.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ICANT, posted 02-24-2024 7:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by ICANT, posted 02-24-2024 11:20 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 193 by Theodoric, posted 02-25-2024 1:05 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 181 of 536 (916136)
02-24-2024 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by ICANT
02-24-2024 11:20 PM


Re: By the Numbers
I don't give a rat's ass about that. You play endless empty pointless word games.
You're just stalling because you have nothing, no model of Jesus creating the Universe.
You're a fraud! Put up or shut up. What a waste of time!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by ICANT, posted 02-24-2024 11:20 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by ICANT, posted 02-25-2024 12:50 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 183 of 536 (916138)
02-25-2024 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by ICANT
02-25-2024 12:50 AM


Re: By the Numbers
I don't know what the scholars say, I don't have any interest what the scholars say. What I think has no affect on whether you can present a model explaining how Jesus created the Universe, you know the title of your thread where you chicken out once again, surprise, surprise.
The bible is fiction and so is the story of Jesus. Now, put up or shut up. I'm a science nerd waiting and waiting for you to actually say something.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by ICANT, posted 02-25-2024 12:50 AM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Phat, posted 02-25-2024 9:51 AM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 192 by dwise1, posted 02-25-2024 12:35 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 190 of 536 (916148)
02-25-2024 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Phat
02-25-2024 9:51 AM


Re: By the Numbers
Phat in Message 188 writes:
Tany, addressing the "religionists" writes:
So, 177 posts in this thread, and still no Jesus did it model. (...)You play endless empty pointless word games.
You're just stalling because you have nothing, no model of Jesus creating the Universe.
No this was Tany addressing ICANT, to try and get him to quit stalling.
He boasted that he could prove Jesus created the Universe, but still hasn't presented a model. He's a fraud and a poser.
ABE:
If CANT is a Hebrew scholar and you are uninterested in what he says, to whom are you asking to "put up or shut up?​
I don't know if he's a scholar or not, but the subject of this thread is not Hebrew history, it's cosmology.
Perhaps this class is not for you.
This isn't a class, and ICANT stinks as a teacher.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Phat, posted 02-25-2024 9:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 02-25-2024 2:27 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 191 of 536 (916149)
02-25-2024 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Phat
02-25-2024 9:51 AM


Re: By the Numbers
Phat in Message 188 writes:
From what I hear, the scientists are a bit puzzled as to why there seem to be fewer bugs around now than there were 50 years ago. Or am I in error over that assertion?
As far as I can tell, entomologists are concerned by the marked decline, because we still have limited knowledge of the life cycles of most species of insects and the ones we study the most are just the ones that have have a direct impact on agriculture, as pests or pollinators. We do know that insects are the major players in the in the terrestrial natural world and that extinctions of whole swaths of insect species would cause whole ecosystems to collapse. There are clear and obvious human activities that are causing the rapid declines of populations, so, no entomologists are not "a bit puzzled."
This is off topic.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Phat, posted 02-25-2024 9:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 02-25-2024 3:15 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 196 of 536 (916154)
02-25-2024 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by dwise1
02-25-2024 12:35 PM


Re: By the Numbers
dwise1 in Message 192 writes:
Tanypteryx in Message 183 writes:
I don't know what the scholars say, I don't have any interest what the scholars say.
He means the apologists whom he chooses because they say what he wants to hear. That's what apologetics is: first decide your conclusion and then find "evidences" (I used that apologetics term deliberately) to support your conclusion, distorting those that don't quite do the job or just flat out fabricating them. We see that all the time in creationism.
Yep, That's why I ignore them, studies of imaginary characters in fictional books, as evidence for how the Universe started fails to provide useful knowledge.
And I don't just mean in this narrow thread, but in my whole life I have never read anything by biblical scholars, because actual scientific discoveries demonstrated that almost everything in the bible is inaccurate and unverifiable and contradictory.
When I was much younger I read the bible twice and the new testament a couple more times and and I still think "Holy Crap" how could anyone over 8 years old believe this shit?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by dwise1, posted 02-25-2024 12:35 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by PaulK, posted 02-25-2024 1:41 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 215 by Theodoric, posted 02-25-2024 5:42 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 197 of 536 (916155)
02-25-2024 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Theodoric
02-25-2024 1:05 PM


Re: By the Numbers
He seems to think he's a great showman, but it's mostly ridiculous boasting.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Theodoric, posted 02-25-2024 1:05 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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