Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9175 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: sirs
Post Volume: Total: 917,649 Year: 4,906/9,624 Month: 254/427 Week: 0/64 Day: 0/8 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 337 of 537 (916487)
03-05-2024 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by Phat
03-05-2024 1:45 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
Thats not how anything works.
That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Bare assertions are just...meaningless and unconvincing. Like saying that "blue is obviously the superior color." People who already like blue will agree. Nobody else will be convinced, and there's no actual reason in that statement to suggest that blue is actually "better" in any way.
One doesn't need to "falsify" the proposition that blue is the superior color. There's no evidence or argument presented to falsify.
The interesting thing is that you actually could make an argument that there has always existed "something." Yours was an appeal to authority (that was the logical fallacy you asked for), but you can actually make a strong argument to that effect.
If you'd like a hint...it's in the Laws of Thermodynamics.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 1:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 359 of 537 (916517)
03-05-2024 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Phat
03-05-2024 12:40 PM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
The truth is what the facts are.
We dont know all facts. We can only represent our beliefs (what we are convinced are facts) and why we find those beliefs convincing (why we think those beliefs represent facts) and with how much confidence. And of course we can say "I dont know."
Phat, I still don't think you understand the word "logic." I mean the literal definition as it applies to debate and argument. You continually use the word in its colloquial sense, meaning "something that makes sense and sounds consistent with my existing beliefs." Logic is actually a rigorous check on the validity of an argument. Only its validity, not its truth. You can make an illogical argument with a true (but invalid) conclusion. You can make a logically consistent argument that leads to a false conclusion.
Religion as always claims knowledge of facts that either are not actually known or that specifically contradict other high-confidence facts. Faith is unjustified belief, an assertion of fact that skips the "convincing evidence and argument" part, and when it tries to justify itself always relies on actually-illogical arguments riddled with fallacies, or false premises, or ignores contrary evidence and argument, or a mix of all of the above.
Should all religion die? If religion is based on faith, the attempt to justify belief without evidence, then yes. Faith is and can only be lies. Even if you have faith in a true fact, the reason for the belief would be a lie, and the truth of the belief would be a coincidence.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 12:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Phat, posted 03-06-2024 10:10 AM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(3)
Message 363 of 537 (916522)
03-05-2024 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by Phat
03-05-2024 2:12 PM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
We share ideas with each other, and now you apparantly want to censor mine. Whats next? Banning free speech in public if it offends someone?
I dont think you understand the word "censorship." Or the concept of "free speech."
Free speech does not entitle you to use anyone else's platform, and it does not entitle you to be listened to. It only means that you cannot face criminal consequences from your speech. You cannot be imprisoned or fined by the government. It means literally nothing else, at all. At all, Phat. The individuals on this forum cannot possibly infringe on your free speech, unless we have a legislator or law enforcement amongst us. Literally nothing. no action any of us can do, no words we can use, can possibly infringe on your free speech.
Anyone who told you different was lying to you.
If you speak nonsense, other people are perfectly able to tell you that you've said...nonsense. If you share a source that someone thinks is vile, they're allowed to say that they think your source is vile. "Free speech" does not mean you or those you like can speak without facing social consequences - they (and you, and everyone else) are only protected from legal consequences.
The "but muh free speech!" thing is a common refrain from people who have shitty opinions, get called out for their shitty opinions, and think they're entitled to spread their shitty opinions everywhere.
If you find yourself concerned about free speech in a circumstance that has nothing to do with facing legal consequences or censorship from the governments, you should pause and consider the speech you're choosing to make, and why people are reacting negatively.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 2:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(3)
Message 366 of 537 (916546)
03-06-2024 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by Phat
03-06-2024 10:10 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Why must faith be lies?
Faith may be illogical at times, but need not be lies.
Because faith is definitionally unjustified belief. It is confidence that a belief reflects a true fact about reality, without justification for that confidence through evidence.
In the best case scenario, a person is lying to themselves - they are inflating their confidence in their belief through something other than actual objective evidence. Perhaps they believe that the belief is morally good, for example. Or simply comforting. This is "making yourself believe" rather than being convinced via objective evidence. Literally make believe.
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see
This is not contradictory with my statement. It's in total agreement. It describes making oneself believe based on hope, not based on evidence.
There is nothing that you cannot make believe based on hope or other emotions. Any overlap with actual reality will be incidental - the belief itself is unjustified. The confidence in that belief is a lie.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Phat, posted 03-06-2024 10:10 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by candle2, posted 03-11-2024 9:22 AM Rahvin has replied
 Message 370 by Phat, posted 03-11-2024 3:13 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 368 of 537 (916751)
03-11-2024 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by candle2
03-11-2024 9:22 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Diligently here means to fully investigate; to seek out; to
earnestly crave; and, to demand proof.
If you had "proof" you would present it, and you would not require faith.
If faith is the evidence of things unseen...proof would be seeing, and you would no longer need faith. We wouldnt need a separate word - we're just use the terms "evidence" and "fact."
When one says that the deep life-changing faith we
have is simply an illusion they are speaking from
ignorance. I do not mean this in a condescending way,
merely that they have no experience in this matter.
I was a devout Christian, candle. I had faith. I do speak from experience. I was "certain." I would have agreed with everything in your post, ~20 years ago.
Faith is not illusion.
Faith is delusion.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by candle2, posted 03-11-2024 9:22 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Phat, posted 03-11-2024 3:05 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 392 by candle2, posted 03-14-2024 7:57 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 394 of 537 (916906)
03-16-2024 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by candle2
03-14-2024 7:57 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
God is not trying to save humanity during this present
age. And, this can be really difficult for the majority to
believe in God, much less to have faith in Him.

Whenever I feel even slightly discouraged, l think of the
Apostle Paul and all that He went through.But he
perserved..

He said that He fought the good fight, and that he had a
crown of righteousness waiting for him.

I want what he wanted. I want it with all my heart. And, I will
never will back off.
You could say similar things about any other fictional character. It's all just nonsense if you're trying to convince someone of anything.
I don't know what happened between you and God, but
do not allow pride to stand in your way. Humility is a
very great trait to develop.
Thats like saying that you don't know what happened between me and Santa Claus.
Nothing happened "between" me and god, because there is no such thing as a god. Just as nothing happened between you and the tooth fairy, or santa claus, or the monster that lived under your bed.
I simply realized that I had no factual basis for my belief...and that was enough to make me no longer be convinced. It's wasn't as abrupt as that sounds, but that's the heart of what happened.
I value rationality and critical thinking. None of us have perfectly accurate knowledge of the world we live in - far from it. We all have a "map" in our brains of how the world is. Those maps affect how we interact with the world - if I believe a car is coming, I'll wait before I cross the street. If I don't believe a car is coming, I might cross right away. Because our "maps" affect how we interact witht he world, I want my "map" to accurately reflect the true territory of the real world as closely as possible. There are methods we can use to improve the accuracy and precision of our maps, and I try to use those.
And when I find something on my map that doesn;t actually seem to exist in the real world...I erase it from my map, and stop believing that it's there.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.
If there is not a god, I do not want to believe that there is a god.
The rest is logic and objective evidence.
If anyone ever wants to convince me of anything about the real world, all that's necessary is objective evidence and a logically consistent argument.
None of that so far exists for any permutation of god(s).

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by candle2, posted 03-14-2024 7:57 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by Phat, posted 03-16-2024 9:42 AM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 405 by candle2, posted 03-16-2024 2:49 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 468 of 537 (917178)
03-25-2024 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by candle2
03-25-2024 11:19 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Shall we list the prophesies of the Karaethon Cycle, and how they were fulfilled by Rand Al'Thor in later books of the Wheel of Time?
"Fulfilled prophecy" isn't very impressive, especially when later authors are aware of the earlier prophesies and can write stories about how they were "fulfilled."
Predict something extremely narrow and well-defined and *incredibly unlikely to happen*, ensure that those involved in fulfillment are unaware of the prophecy, and then do that 10 or 100 times and it might become impressive.
"There will be wars and rumors of wars" is like predicting that tomorrow is Tuesday.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by candle2, posted 03-25-2024 11:19 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by candle2, posted 03-26-2024 3:24 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 482 of 537 (917223)
03-26-2024 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 480 by candle2
03-26-2024 3:24 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
That's an awful lot of text to completely miss the point and fail to address anything.
If you think that ignoring an argument and preaching will be effective at anything, you are mistaken.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by candle2, posted 03-26-2024 3:24 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024