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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 9 of 536 (915779)
02-17-2024 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
02-16-2024 7:22 PM


Does it matter
ICANT writes:
My question is where did that energy come from and science says "we don't know".
It seems to me as a Christian you are asking the wrong question. I suggest that it matters to you as you keep tying yourself up in knots by basing Christianity on your particular way of understanding the Bible.
It appears to me that you understand the Bible as being a collection of books that were more or less dictated by God. That understanding of the Bible turns God into a schizophrenic being; sometimes a God of peace and sometimes of a God ordering genocide..
How about understanding the Bible as a collection of books written by numerous authors and redactors with a narrative reflecting the growing understanding of God and His place in our hearts and minds.
It doesn't matter whether or not God created the physical world. What matters is the life in the world that perceives and experiences this physical world in a particular way with the senses we have been given. More importantly than that though is the creation of conscious life, and further, conscious life capable of empathy, and morality.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2024 7:22 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 02-17-2024 5:37 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 02-17-2024 6:31 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 17 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2024 8:13 PM GDR has replied
 Message 18 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2024 8:14 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 27 of 536 (915799)
02-18-2024 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by ICANT
02-17-2024 8:13 PM


Re: Does it matter
ICANT writes:
I don't claim nor have I ever claimed to be a Christian.
I do claim to be a born again child of the King
Talk about splitting hairs. Like me you are simply a flawed Christian.
Maybe it don't matter to you but it does to me, Genesis 1:1 states:
quote:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In Hebrew that is a declarative statement of the completed action of the verb by the subject of the of the verb which resulted in the heavens and the earth existing as a completed product.

If that statement is not correct God is a Liar or He does not exist since He can not lie.

So, yes it is very important.
It is only important to you because it has to fit with how you contend the Bible should be understood. Essentially you place your understanding of the Bible over what Jesus taught and did. Remember it is Christianity and not Biblianity.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2024 8:13 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 28 of 536 (915800)
02-18-2024 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by ICANT
02-17-2024 8:13 PM


Re: Does it matter
ICANT writes:
I don't claim nor have I ever claimed to be a Christian.
I do claim to be a born again child of the King
Talk about splitting hairs. Like me you are simply a flawed Christian.
Maybe it don't matter to you but it does to me, Genesis 1:1 states:
quote:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In Hebrew that is a declarative statement of the completed action of the verb by the subject of the of the verb which resulted in the heavens and the earth existing as a completed product.

If that statement is not correct God is a Liar or He does not exist since He can not lie.

So, yes it is very important.
It is only important to you because it has to fit with how you contend the Bible should be understood. Essentially you place your understanding of the Bible over what Jesus taught and did. Remember it is Christianity and not Biblianity.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2024 8:13 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by ICANT, posted 02-18-2024 1:16 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 48 of 536 (915839)
02-18-2024 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ICANT
02-18-2024 1:16 AM


Re: Does it matter
ICANT writes:
The word christian only appears 3 times in the bible.
​In Acts 11:26 The disciples were called little Christos because they were living a life like Christ did. Are you living a life like Christ did? He was perfect I am far from perfect yet, I won't be perfect until I inhabit my new body.
Firstly the word "Christ" is a title from the Latin as opposed to the Hebrew word "Messiah" which I would assume that you know more about than I would. The way you describe yourself is simply one specific phrase to define your particular way of understanding Christianity.
ICANT writes:
Would you please explain where I misquoted the scriptures or mis-represented what they say. Don't be bashful about it I can take constructive criticism any time.
You didn't misquote Scripture. However, Genesis isn't to be read as a science text or even a newspaper. It is an ancient mythology that still has deep meaning. Again, the Bible is a library of 66 books, at least in our version of it. It is a narrative of humans working towards a greater understanding of their deity. THe early Jews were looking for the most powerful god amongst a plethora of gods. It was only much later that they became monotheistic. Why would you read Genesis in the same way that you might understand Leviticus, Isaiah or the Gospels?
The argument that God commanded genocide because Yahweh didn't want the pagan nations to negatively doesn't hold water. Jesus lived in a land brutally dominated by the Romans with all of their deities and yet Jesus told His followers to "turn the other cheek" and respond to them in love as it was about winning their hearts and not about beating them in battle.
To understand Jesus in the NT we need to be able to reference what Jesus said in the OT and to understand the OT we need to understand it thorough the lens of what we read Jesus saying in the NT and specifically in the Gospels.
However we understand the Christian faith it remains a faith. I put my faith in Jesus ovewr a literal understaning of the Bible.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ICANT, posted 02-18-2024 1:16 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2024 10:36 PM GDR has replied
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 02-20-2024 3:13 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 49 of 536 (915843)
02-18-2024 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ICANT
02-18-2024 2:04 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
Everything if I am going to show that Jesus created everything that exists.
Firstly I don't know whether or not God/Jesus created everything that exists. As a matter of interest it would be neat to know, but we can't know. You pick a verse from the Bible and treat that as a statement of literal fact and certain knowledge.
Can you tell me what difference it actually makes to our faith? Does it diminish in any way the teachings or the life of Jesus in the Gospels, or how the writers of the Epistles interpreted the man Jesus?
It matters to you because you prioritize your understanding of Bible at the expense of what Jesus said and did in the Gospels.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ICANT, posted 02-18-2024 2:04 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2024 8:41 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 103 of 536 (916012)
02-21-2024 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ICANT
02-19-2024 8:41 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT writes:
Either He created everything that exists as He said or it is all an accident.
Not at all. Everyone agree that the universe, at least in some form, pre-dated life on Earth. God could be God without having created the physical universe but did bring about life as we know it.
ICANT writes:
All science is trying to do is prove that God was not necessary to exist.
Wrong again. Science is about trying to find out how this world came into existence, without regard to whether or not it is the result of an external intelligence.
ICANT writes:
I have faith enough to believe God has preserved enough of His Word that with the help of the Holy Spirit I can find what He wants me to know.
Firstly, the Word of God is Jesus, (see see John 1 as you well know). There are many like myself who also believe we are guided by the Holy Spirit that disagree with your understanding of the Scriptures.
ICANT writes:
It matters to me as the truth is the only thing that matters period.
As do I. As do atheists.
God bless you as well.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2024 8:41 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2024 8:43 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 104 of 536 (916013)
02-21-2024 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ICANT
02-19-2024 10:36 PM


Re: Does it matter
ICANT writes:
I want to do everything God's way because His way is the only way I can get to Heaven.
That in a nut shell is what is so wrong and even perversive about you view of the Christian faith.
You turn Jesus' message completely around. You clearly believe that the whole point of being Christian is about gaining favour with God in the next life or even in this life. We are simply called to love our neighbour as ourselves and by extension to love all of His creatures which includes being a good steward of the land.
You say you want to do things God's way. It isn't simply about doing anything. It is a call to love, which requires having a heart as guided by the Spirit to love sacrificially. What we do in terms of actions is only meaningful from a God perspective, if it is an act of love without thought or regard for any personal gain in this life or the next. I suggest that you re-read the Scriptures without the blinders that you have put on over a life time.
ICANT writes:
Where do you Get Genesis is ancient mythology?

Genesis may not be a science book but it tells us about a creation that took place in the beginning which got destroyed and God had to do a remodelling job creating a fish for Jonah and mankind male and female at the same time, which was never placed in any garden or forbidden from eating fruit of a specific tree. In fact they were told they could eat from every tree as well as they were supposed to replenish the earth.
This again points to how you disregard Jesus in favour of an inerrant Bible.
quote:
Deuteronomy 7:2
and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
and then from Matthew 5
quote:
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Which statement reveal the true nature of God and His desire for our lives. It is rationally impossible to suggest that both of these Biblical quotes came from God. Either God is a tyrannical god or He is a loving god. Which do you choose? I choose the latter.
GDR writes:
The early Jews were looking for the most powerful god amongst a plethora of gods. It was only much later that they became monotheistic. Why would you read Genesis in the same way that you might understand Leviticus, Isaiah or the Gospels?
ICANT writes:
I don't know what you are talking about as the children of Israel had been in Egyptian bondage for 450 years and when they came out after the first born of everything man and animals unless they had the blood applied to the door posts they worshiped one God.

Then when they refused to go into the promised land when God said go they spent 40 years wandering around in the desert with Moses and all the men that were over 20 years of age died. Then under Joshua they went into the promised Land. And yes they were told to wipe out everybody as God wanted to preserve a pure people for Himself and if they did not wipe them out they would begin following their gods which is exactly what happened as they did not obey God.
There were Jews long before this and the early Jews vacillated between Yahweh and Ball going to the one which seemed to be the most powerful.
ICANT writes:
I have never been one to want to settle for a peace of a loaf when I could have the whole loaf if I worked hard enough for it.

I graduated with the best grades in my 1-12 school and my college classes.

I became an earth mover operator I became the best there was and then when to a d7 dozer and became the best there was and then moved to a motor grader and became the best there was . I then became a trim carpenter and became one of the best there was then a cabinet builder and became one of the best there was. I had a cabinet shop in the Cayman Islands for 15 years and built cabinets for town homes condominiums banks the Governors Scotts house several multimillionaires and even did cabinets for a couple of 55' yacht's.

All the time I was a carpenter and cabinet maker I was pastoring or building churches..
Congratulations on having a successful career by secular standards. I don't know how that makes you an expert on understanding the nature and desires of God. I had a successful career as well. I have been active in many church ministries. That is hardly a reason to accept my views.
ICANT writes:
So I don't want to be a mediocre soldier in Gods Army I want to be a 5 star General. During the 1000 year reign of Christ I want to be in charge of the State of Florida.
There you go again looking for what you can do to gain benefit and even power based on what you do. How about serving simply because it is the right thing to do without thought of personal gain in this life or the next.
I'd add that this last statement makes you sound just a tad prideful. Try reading my signature statement from Micah.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2024 10:36 PM ICANT has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 117 of 536 (916035)
02-22-2024 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by ICANT
02-21-2024 8:43 PM


Focusing on the clear and simple
ICANT writes:
I got no problem with science trying to figure out and tell me how God created things. I just don't like being told I am stupid,
You are not a stupid man, but even the most brilliant mind in the world can be wrong about things that can't be proven empirically.
You didn't respond to my critique of your understanding of how to understand the Bible. However that isn't really that important. What matters is the things we would agree on.
Here is a line from our liturgy which really jumped out too me. It is simply this in referring to trinitarian belief, but it also applies to our Christian faith in general.
"So complex so simple, so clear so mysterious."
It is the simple and clear part of our faith that matters, and it can be summed up in the "Golden Rule". "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you". From Matthew 7:
quote:
12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Another way of putting it can be seen in my signature.
That is what is clear and simple and that is what really matters. I'm sure that as a pastor you have applied that in your life and I'm sure that you have done a lot of good for a lot of people.
The complex and mysterious part is interesting, but not as important in general. However, in taking the Bible as being inerrant then we can use passages in Scripture to justify acts of unjustified violence. That has happened numerous times.
Let's just agree that God is a loving god and is responsible for the fact that we exist. More importantly, that we can have empathy and morality, and that we are called to humbly apply this in how we live our lives and be very thankful.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2024 8:43 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 02-22-2024 1:39 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 124 of 536 (916045)
02-22-2024 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ICANT
02-22-2024 1:39 PM


Re: Focusing on the clear and simple
Maybe you missed my point. The point is that the important part of our faith is clear and simple. God first loved us so that we can in turn love others even to the detriment of ourselves as we see in Jesus.
You and I can gain some conceptual knowledge of science by reading people like Brian Greene. Arguing points of science on this forum is pointless. It is a good place to learn science as there are several scientists that we can learn from on this forum. I suggest looking up Son Guko or Cavediver and their posts. They haven't been around for a while now. It is enough to simply say that science does not disprove Christianity as we can see by the number of highly respected scientists that are Christian, although none that I know of the would support an inerrant view of the Bible.
Also I would suggest reading books by John Polkinghorne.He has written numerous books, written as both a Christian and a scientist. This one might interest you. Testing Scripture-A scientist looks at the Bible.
Also when you talk about judgement I would agree that we let God judge our lives trusting in God's perfect justice for all mankind with the re-creation of ALL things as Paul talks about.
I'll repeat that earlier quote. from Matthew 7.
quote:
12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
I suggest that we all live by that and then leave God's perfect judgement for the next life up to him, and frankly not spend a lot of time looking for scientific evidence for theological concepts.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 02-22-2024 1:39 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2024 11:43 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 470 of 536 (917183)
03-25-2024 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by Percy
03-20-2024 12:45 PM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Percy writes:
The topic of the thread is that the historical Jesus created the universe.
Here's my take on it for what it is worth.
John chap 1 says that "the Word became flesh" obviously referring to Jesus. All through the creation stories we read of God speaking the world and creatures into existence. So when, John and others talk about the "Word" of God they are referring back to the Genesis accounts.
So when Jesus the man embodied God's nature of Agapeic love it was then said that He embodied God's Word, and thus some have wrongly extended that to mean that Jesus was there from the beginning of time. It does not mean that Jesus would have had any memory of what happened at any time prior to His birth. It was God's created intelligence and agapeic love, or His "Word" that brought the universe as we perceive it into existence.
I contend that we can learn a lot from the Biblical mythologies, if we don't try to understand them literally.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Percy, posted 03-20-2024 12:45 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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