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Author Topic:   The Historical Jesus: Did He Create the Universe?
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 92 of 536 (915999)
02-21-2024 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ICANT
02-19-2024 3:49 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT, you quoted Isaiah 45:7. It reads:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and
create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
***You go on to say that God created evil. Also, you state
that God created Satan as being fully evil.
Evil is from the. Hebrew word "Rah. And as the case with
many Hebrew words, Rah has a wide range of meanings,
depending on the context.
Rah can be translated as evil or wicked. But it can also be
translated as adversity, affliction, bad (bad times), distress,
Calamity, etc....
In fact "rah" is translated other than evil or wicked more
than 75 times.
The translators of the KJV mistakingly rendered rah as evil
when calamity or bad times would have been much more
appropriate in 45:7.
Parallelism would best be rendered as: I form the light,
and create the darkness. Light vs dark.
I make peace, and create evil is not Parallelism.
I make peace, and I create calamity. Or, I make good
times and bad times.
The NIV renders this verse as "I form the light, and create
darkness; I bring prosperity, and create disaster
The NLT renders it as: "I am the one who creates the light,
and makes the darkness; I am the one who sends good
times and bad times.
God directs judgements, disappointments, trials, and
calamities.
Isaiah 45:7 does not prove God is the author of moral
evil, or sin. To suggest that He is goes against the
character of a just and Holy God.
Ezekiel 28 states that Satan was perfect in all His ways
TILL iniquity was found in him.
Satan was on the mercy seat of God.
Satan, by virtue of his pride, became vain. False pride is
what turned him against God.
Angels, like humans, were created with free will. Satan
did this to himself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2024 3:49 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 02-21-2024 5:28 PM candle2 has replied
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 02-22-2024 12:22 PM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 132 of 536 (916068)
02-23-2024 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
02-21-2024 5:28 PM


Re: By the Numbers
Phat, in Genesis 1:31 God states that everything He had
created was "very good."
The tree is never called evil. The Bible states that it is
the knowledge of good and evil.
God gave Adam two commands that we know of. One was
that Adam was to tend and keep the garden. Adam was
required to work the garden, and to keep it from
deteriorating.
The other was that they must not eat from the tree of
knowledge of good and evil.
The tree was pleasant to the eye, and it's fruit must have
been appealing.
The animals were allowed to eat from any tree in the
garden. Only Adam and Eve were forbidden to eats its
fruit.
Adam and Eve had two choices concerning the tree. They
could obey God and not eat for the tree, or they could
disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit.
God tells us what is right, but He allows us the freedom
to determine what we will do.
After eating the forbidden fruit, the two knew that they
had disobeyed God. They had committed sin.
They instantly knew that what they had done was evil.
This awareness caused them to hide from God.
Disobedience to God is Satan's way. And Adam and Eve
had rejected God's clear command to not eat from it.
God did not trick them, nor did He stack the deck
against them. He gave them a plainly stated order not to
do a certain thing.
The truth is that the tree was not of itself evil. It did not
contribute to man's sinfulness. It merely provided him
with an opportunity to obey or disobey.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 02-21-2024 5:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 02-23-2024 10:10 AM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 142 of 536 (916085)
02-23-2024 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ICANT
02-22-2024 12:22 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT, you stated:
"It does not. That statement was made in the lamentation
to the King of Tyre the devil is mentioned nowhere in that
text. Quit reading things into the Bible you aren't supposed
to add to it. "
***Nor is anyone supposed to take away from it.
The prince of Tyre was a man. However, the king of Tyre
was Satan.
Mortal man has ever been called a cherub, especially
one who covers, as on the mercy seat.
Never was there a man, other than Adam, who ewas in the
Garden of Eden.
This cherub was created. All angels were created beings.
And Adam and Eve were the only humans who were
created. All other humans were born.
Ezekiel 28 make it very clear that the king of Tyre was
Satan. The prince of Tyre served him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 02-22-2024 12:22 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2024 2:07 PM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 145 of 536 (916088)
02-23-2024 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ICANT
02-22-2024 12:22 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT, you stated:
"According to the Hebrew Lexicon it means evil and out of
663 times used in the Bible was translated evil 442 times
all other words it was translated as are adjectives.
Since it is a noun evil is the only definition possible in Isaiah 45:7."
***I know how many times that "ra" was translated as
evil. Anyone with a Lexicon can easily find this info.
Distress, adversity, bad (sorry, my bad), trouble, mischief,
affliction, calamity, misery, sorrow, and several other
words translated from ra are also nouns.
God does not create evil. It is against His righteous character.
The opposite of light is darkness.
The opposite of peace is not evil.
The opposite of good is evil.
I form the light, and create darkness;
I make peace, and create adversity, affliction, distress,
calamity (are all good translations. But not evil).
In Psalms 94:13 ra is used twice.
"That you may give him rest from the days of adversity (ra),
Until the pit is dug for the wicked (ra).
The same is true in Genesis 31:29 "It is in my power to do
you harm (ra), but the God of your father spoke to me
last night, saying, 'Be careful that you speak to Jacob
neither good or bad' (ra).
Evil in 45:7 is our of context for ra to be translated as evil.
And, it us also not in God's character.
You should give God more credit than you do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 02-22-2024 12:22 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by ICANT, posted 02-24-2024 1:07 PM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 146 of 536 (916089)
02-23-2024 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ICANT
02-23-2024 2:07 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT, you stated:
"Where does the Bible say the King of Tyre was the devil?"
***Who do you think he was talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2024 2:07 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2024 10:55 PM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 148 of 536 (916091)
02-23-2024 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ICANT
02-22-2024 12:22 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT, you wrote:
"Isaiah did not know anything about English, French,
German or any language other than Hebrew and that is
what he used to write . If you want to understand what he is
saying you need to learn the language and think like he did."
***We know the various meanings of ra. We also know that
Isaiah wrote shalown and ra. Nobody is disputing this.
And no one is disputing that the translators correctly
rendered shalown as peace. But to render ra as evil in
this verse makes no sense in either parallelism, or in
regards to God's devine and righteous nature.
Satan was created without fault. However, he gave all
angels free will. False pride and jealousy were the driving
forces behind Satan's fall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 02-22-2024 12:22 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2024 8:09 PM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


(1)
Message 186 of 536 (916143)
02-25-2024 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by ICANT
02-23-2024 8:09 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT, you wrote:
If angels have freewill give me a scripture where they
were ordered to do something and they did not do it or
where they were ordered not to do something and they
did it anyway. That includes the devil.
***Jude 6: "And the angels who did not keep their proper
domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in
everlasting chains under darkness for the judgement of
the great day."
The fallen angels disobeyed God by not remaining where
God placed them. They did not do what He ordered them
to do.
2 Peter 2:4 "For if God did not spare the angels who
sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them
into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgement."
Sin is the transgression of God laws. They disobeyed
Him.
If they had been created as evil beings, without free will,
then they did not do anything other than what they were
programmed to do.
Without free will, they would be no different than a wild
animal. And animals are incapable of sinning.
God does not reserve animals in chains of darkness
awaiting the day of judgement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2024 8:09 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by ICANT, posted 02-25-2024 3:38 PM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


(1)
Message 187 of 536 (916145)
02-25-2024 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by ICANT
02-23-2024 10:55 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT, in reply to my post asking who you thought Ezekiel
was talking about in Ezekiel 28, you wrote:
"The king of Tyre."
*** The truth is that you know that Ezekiel was talking
about Satan. But you will not admit this. It does not fit
your narrative.
The king of Tyre was the anointed cherub who covers.
Just the simple fact that the king of Tyre was a cherub
rules out even the slightest possibility that he was a
mortal man.
The king of Tyre was created, not born. Adam and Eve
were the only humans ever created. All angels were
created.
The king of Tyre was in the Garden of Eden. Other than
God, Genesis records than only Adan. Eve, and the
serpent were in the Garden of Eden.
Revelation 12:9 identifies the serpent as Satan the Devil,
as does Revelation 20:2.
The Great Dragon, serpent, Satan, and the Devil are all
one and the same.
The king of Tyre, who was Satan, was perfect in all His
ways from the day he was created, TILL iniquity wad
found in him.
The king of Tyre (Satan) was cast to the ground.
Jesus stated in Luke 10:18 that He saw Satan fall from
heaven.
He was cast back down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2024 10:55 PM ICANT has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 222 of 536 (916184)
02-26-2024 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by ICANT
02-25-2024 3:38 PM


Re: By the Numbers
ICANT, you stated:
But He gave them no law, so how did they break any law?
***The Apostle John describes sin as the transgression
(violation) of God's laws.
Where there are no laws, there can be no violation.
For example, if a highway has no speed limit, there is
no violation for driving at 100 mph.
However, if a highway has a speed limit set at no more
than 60 mph, and one is driving at 100 mph, then that
driver is breaking the law.
The same goes with God. Where there is no law, there
is no sin; thereby, no sinner.
Peter, in 2 Peter 2:4, states without the slightest hint of
ambiguity that some angels sinned.
If the angels had no law, they could not be charged with
lawbreaking.
ONLY someone who breaks God's laws can be a sinner.
This should be so easy for you to understand. But, you
simply refuse to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by ICANT, posted 02-25-2024 3:38 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 02-26-2024 10:25 AM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


(1)
Message 235 of 536 (916200)
02-26-2024 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Phat
02-26-2024 10:25 AM


Re: By the Numbers
Phat, you wrote:
It seems that what you are suggesting is that there was
no Law between God and the Angels.
***I never said this. Angels are bound by the laws of
God.
ICANT wanted me to show him what specific laws of God
that the angels disobeyed. He is the one who asserts
that the angels cannot sin because they do not have
free will.
Not to covet is one of the 10 Commandments.
Satan broke this Commandment. He wanted what God
had. He wanted to be like Him. He was jealous.
God is the Creator of the angels, so He is the closest
Thing they have to an actual Father.
Those who rebelled against Him, did not honor Him.
There was as much law between the angels and God
as there is between humans and God.
God's laws are universal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 02-26-2024 10:25 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Phat, posted 02-26-2024 3:25 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 241 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 2:19 AM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 254 of 536 (916236)
02-27-2024 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Phat
02-27-2024 8:42 AM


Re: Apologetically Speaking
Phat, here are the boasts made by Satan in Isaiah 14.
Vs. 13 "I will ascent into heaven, I will exalt my throne
(he has a throne) above the stars of God (he was going
to be above Michael and all of them); I will also sit on the
mount of the congregation, on the farthest sides of the
north;"
14. "I will ascend above the the heights of the clouds, I
will be like the Most High."
Satan coveted what God Almighty had. He greatly
desired it. He was full of pride and greed.
Satan must have some awesome powers in order to think
that he could war against God and win.
By the multitude of his merchandise (Ezekiel 28:16) Satan
was able to convince a third of God's angels to follow him.
It seems insane to those of us who understand that
God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient that
the angels would fight against Him.
In any event, I feel certain that they knew God could
read their minds, and that they could not hide their
thoughts from Him.
Perhaps this is why they went on the offensive. They
could have wished to strike first. I don't know.
The point is that Satan did covet what God had. He also
wanted to take it by force, to steal it.
He is father of lies. And, he broke all God's
Commandments, with the possible exception of #4.
Angels are not allowed to defy God's laws, no more than
we are.
I agree with you in that there are many who take their
doctrines and opinions from books other than the Bible.
Books are a good thing, and they can help with info that
one might not otherwise find. But, if they contradict the
Bible, they must be dismissed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Phat, posted 02-27-2024 8:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 2:28 PM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 258 of 536 (916240)
02-27-2024 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by ICANT
02-27-2024 2:28 PM


Re: Apologetically Speaking
CANT, you stated:
Mankind is the only living life form that can disobey God.
***Prove it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by ICANT, posted 02-27-2024 2:28 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 352 of 536 (916510)
03-05-2024 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by dwise1
03-05-2024 10:48 AM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
dwise, you wrote:
Mormons are Christians! Just because it's not YOUR
Jesus does not give you authority to deny that fact.
***You claim to be descended (and proud of it) from
chimpanzee type ancestors. Do you still resemble one?
It is not fitting for you to try and talk down to those of us
who are far above the caveman mentality of evolution.
ICANT worships God. You worship amoeba.
You need to show some respect to the Creator. You drink
His water and breathe His oxygen; yet, you refuse to show
Him any appreciation.
Such arrogant entitlement!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2024 10:48 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 11:59 AM candle2 has not replied
 Message 355 by Phat, posted 03-05-2024 12:08 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 356 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2024 12:28 PM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 364 of 536 (916536)
03-06-2024 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by dwise1
03-05-2024 12:28 PM


Re: A wee bit of amateur philosophy
dwise, you wrote:
That's really rich coming from a creationist who denies
the Creation and tried to disprove it, hence denying the
Creator in favor of your false creationist theology.
***I, more so than anyone else on this board, have
defended God's creation.
I do not try to place man's interpretations of creation over
what the Bible clearly tells me.
There is a purpose in everything that God does. In order
for God to have created the universe, He, by necessity,
possessed an all knowing mind, with unlimited knowledge
of mathematics, physics, chemistry, etc...
There is no known way that nature (a natural process)
could have created the universe and all that it contains.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2024 12:28 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 367 of 536 (916744)
03-11-2024 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Rahvin
03-06-2024 11:17 AM


Re: Rahvin vs Scripture
Ravine, you wrote:
Because faith is definitionally unjustified belief. It is
confidence that a belief reflects a true fact about reality,
without justification for that confidence through evidence.
***We are not talking about mere belief, nor are we
talking about faith that God exists.
James 2:19 "You believe that there is one God. You do
well. Even the demons believe-and tremble."
Many falsely assume that just believing that God exists is
enough. Many are even baptized, believing that this is all
that is required of them.
This is not the kind of faith that God requires of His
disciples. It is much, much deeper than this.
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please
Him, for he who comes to God must belive that He is, and
that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."
Diligently here means to fully investigate; to seek out; to
earnestly crave; and, to demand proof.
To believe that God exists is only the starting point. We
must also believe what He says, and what He promises
us.
To have faith as it is defined in the Bible we must goes
much deeper than what one has never experienced it
can understand.
It is a life-changing certainty. It both allows and requires
us to repent of our way of life, and to allow the Holy
Spirit of God to create within us a new creature.
Now only can we have faith, but we must have it if we
are to truly know God.
When one says that the deep life-changing faith we
have is simply an illusion they are speaking from
ignorance. I do not mean this in a condescending way,
merely that they have no experience in this matter.
It would be comparable to me telling a surgeon how to
perform open-heart surgery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Rahvin, posted 03-06-2024 11:17 AM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Rahvin, posted 03-11-2024 1:51 PM candle2 has replied

  
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