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Author Topic:   State Execution in the USA
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(5)
Message 29 of 80 (914756)
02-01-2024 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by ICANT
01-31-2024 8:54 PM


Re: An Eye For An Eye
ICANT writes:
How about an answer? In other words give me a reason they should not give their life for taking a life.
Because we are human: fallible, prone to rages of vengeance and unjust convictions. In recent decades, hundreds of death row inmates were exonerated.
In many if not most of those cases, years-long legal battles kept innocent people alive long enough to be freed, while the state worked furiously to kill them. The numbers on death row, and the numbers exonerated, suggest 1 in 8 death row prisoners are innocent.
In the U.S., it is incontrovertible that we knowingly execute innocent people. We know this reign of terror is fed by police misconduct, prosecutorial misconduct, impoverished defendants, and the politicalization of the judiciary: they serve up a heaping helping of convictions corrupted by racial bias, misconduct, incompetence and political ambition. Both state and federal forensic labs have been rocked by scandals of fraudulent findings in favor of the prosecution.
The state cannot be trusted with the power of life and death.
Faith in spiritual beliefs unevidenced to others is your internal affair. Faith in the rightness of killing another human being, knowing it entails a tithe of innocent blood, is a moral horror that should be resisted by any person of conscience.
I would rather pay for humane incarceration than dip my hands in the blood you are so eager to spill.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2024 8:54 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by dwise1, posted 02-01-2024 10:25 AM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2024 1:00 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(3)
Message 32 of 80 (914762)
02-01-2024 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by dwise1
02-01-2024 10:25 AM


Re: An Eye For An Eye
dwise1 writes:
As a result, people who are wrongly convicted get the harshest sentences.
And are routinely denied parole for the same reason.
Economic status plays a large role, and you don't have to be poor to be unable to pay for an effective defense. Overwhelmed public defenders routinely counsel their clients to plead guilty to a lesser charge, regardless of innocence, because it's a better bet than a trial. So you can get all the justice you can afford.
As Trump has shown, you can evade all the justice you can afford, too.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by dwise1, posted 02-01-2024 10:25 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 42 of 80 (914777)
02-01-2024 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
02-01-2024 1:00 PM


Re: An Eye For An Eye
ICANT writes:
Where is the sympathy for the 960,000 people who were murdered?
Where is the sympathy for the millions of children who are left without a father/mother which ever the case may be?
Where is the sympathy for the parents of the children that were murdered?

That is 960,000 innocent people who have been executed by their personal assassin, where is the outrage?
For my part, the sympathy and outrage are here in the same heart that would not take another life, and in the mind that sees no good reason for it and many against.
Why are these the questions you ask? Why don't you ask what good will it do to kill another? Is it good to slake the thirst for vengeance in a victimized family?
Is that how you pastored the grief-stricken Christian families? Did you urge them to nurse their anger and to pray for the death of another?
So ... would it be best if the bereft children killed the guilty party directly?
Just asking.
ICANT writes:
How about paying for raising all the children and all the other expenses incurred by the families due to these murders?
Do you genuinely expect death penalty opponents to be against generous support for families in need? Please. There are those strongly opposed to public assistance who also hold strong views on the death penalty, but it's not my camp.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2024 1:00 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2024 1:05 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(4)
Message 59 of 80 (914805)
02-03-2024 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
02-02-2024 3:18 PM


Re: Capital Punishment
Phat writes:
I agree that citizens should not be forced to pay for taking care of these people. We have enough on our plates and the incarcerated should be self supporting, as long as they are alive. Ifr people want to make a difference, they should support education before these people become mentally ill. It does little good to support someone who is broken when it is too late to help them.
So much to unpack here ... sometime we'll have to talk about how police, chain gangs and work farms replaced black slavery with black penal servitude in the States Formerly Known as Slave States.
And I wonder how much arithmetic thought you've given to these theoretical self-supporting, restitution paying prisoners. That would require a remarkably remunerative job. One might have to sell their organs.
But what bothers me most is the notion that attempting to help the mentally ill is futile.
Our jails and prisons are now our asylums, and the street our waiting room. Gently put, they are not effective treatment centers. Psychiatric care is expensive and sparsely covered by insurance and state health programs. The Great Emptying of state mental health hospitals of the late 20th century, ostensibly about the patients' liberty rights but more about Reagan era concern for your wallet, Phat, hastened the metamorphosis of patients to prisoners.
Mentally ill, poor, denied psychiatric care and trying to self-medicate, perhaps, favorite victims of street predators: one might as well write a prescription for jail--where the untreated mentally ill will continue to go without treatment, living cheek and jowl with predators on both sides of the bars, from incarcerated sexual psychopaths to sadistic corrections officers.
Squeeze a balloon in one spot, it bulges in another. Our society can deny care to the mentally ill, but they and their disturbed behaviors are gonna go somewhere. Refusing to fund that care saves money in its paper instance, but the consequent bills, financial, social and moral, are immense.
Mental illness is not a lifestyle choice, no more so than a child chooses measles. There is no blame or sin: they are, simply, ill. The very term mental illness is a misnomer. There is no mind without a brain, and no severe disturbance of either one without a physical correlate. There is no satanic imp perched on our shoulders, whispering madness that we can embrace or reject.
When we're "already broken" is when we need help.
I'm glad you think education is good, though I suspect improving it makes your wallet cringe. I never thought of education as prophylaxis for mental illness, but what the hell, sure.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 02-02-2024 3:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Percy, posted 02-04-2024 7:49 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(6)
Message 61 of 80 (914807)
02-03-2024 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Minnemooseus
02-03-2024 10:17 PM


Re: Culling
Moose writes:
I proposed the concept that the convicted capital offender be given the option - "As things currently sit, you are going to die in prison. We offer you the choice of when such happens."
A prisoner's dilemma of another sort ...
I strongly support the right to time one's exit -- so strongly that I hesitate to add 'especially from an intolerable life', because a right whose every exercise requires prior approval is no right at all.
But I would worry about the penal system's power to make misery drive the prisoner's decision.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-03-2024 10:17 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(2)
Message 67 of 80 (914843)
02-05-2024 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by ICANT
02-05-2024 11:53 AM


Re: Capital Punishment
It sounds like your g-g-grandfather was one hell of a guy.
With whole families of slaves, he must have needed a foreman of some kind -- an overseer, in the trade.
Do you suppose they stopped raping the women once they couldn't sell the kids?

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ICANT, posted 02-05-2024 11:53 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(4)
Message 73 of 80 (914886)
02-06-2024 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by ICANT
02-05-2024 11:53 AM


Re: Capital Punishment
ICANT writes:
I don't see where that is fair to my wife and children.
Life ain't fair, Rev.
It's not fair to be a victim of crime. It's also unfair to grow up in a society that locks you into poverty and thwarts normal human growth and ambitions. It's unfair that the (rich) evil prosper.
See Job. Then take it up with your god.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ICANT, posted 02-05-2024 11:53 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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