Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.

As Mark Twain did not say when he didn't comment on Santayana, "History does not repeat itself, but it rhymes." (Quote Investigator Thinks theodor Reik a likely candidate.) What happens this time around will include both similarities and differences to the protests of the late 60's and early 70's. One very significant difference is that we are not drafting young men to risk their lives in a distant foreign war, and it seems unlikely that we will. Gaza is too tiny and defenseless, Hamas not withstanding, for this war to last much longer.There seem a couple significant confusions this time around. First, demonstrating against Israel's actions in Gaza does not automatically make one pro-Palestinian in the sense of supporting war against Israel or of believing Israel should not exist or of supporting Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah. What I hope is that the demonstrators are mostly against the Israeli slaughter of Gazans and for relieving Gazan suffering.Second, it's often not clear whether such demonstrations are also anti-Zionist. But the reality is that Zionism is itself racist. Zionism is support for a Jewish nation that combines state and religion into one and disenfranchises those of other religions and nationalities. It is Zionism that drives Israeli hatred of Palestinians. Not that Palestinians don't have their own racist hatreds, but neither wrong makes the other right.I haven't seen the demonstrators calling much attention to Zionism, but the association is impossible to avoid.--Percy

Yes, not having hundreds of your friends and family coming home every month in body bags is a significant difference. This war is not slapping you in the face every waking hour. USofA participation in this present atrocity is hidden in the shipping containers of bombs and bullets we supply to both sides.

It depends where the revolution leads us. Thank God Jerry Rubin became a capitalist! R.I.P.

What is the relevance of Jerry Rubin? Do you know anything about him?

Jerry Rubin was, as far as I know, an activist and protester in the sixties who later became a businessman. Is there anything more I should know about him?My own sister was one of those protesters back then. My Dad was the businessman and she was the rebel in the family. I never had any desire to protest much of anything since I was living quite well back then...safe at home.She of course went to college and became feisty.

Today in conversation with friends I found myself in the minority defending student demonstrations. They felt that the pro-Palestinian demonstrations deserved to be broken up because they were antisemitic, and because people from outside the universities had joined the demonstrations, and because they had become disruptive of normal campus activities and in some cases become violent and destructive.I was surprised to hear people I usually agree with say these things, but maybe it is me that has lost touch with events. To me, objecting to what Israel is doing in Gaza is not antisemitic. If the demonstrations aren't largely peaceful then I've missed it. And most campuses are open. There's nothing wrong with people from outside the universities joining demonstrations on campus.Hearing these things felt like listening to marc9000 rail on about the violence of the BLM riots when they were largely peaceful. My position is that if you want violence then just send in police to end demonstrations. As soon as demonstrators refuse to disperse then the police will feel justified in using violent means to make them disperse.The US might have free speech, but for those whose feelings reach the point where just standing behind a roped off area chanting and holding a sign isn't enough, when you're willing to become disruptive even in a passive way like sitting on a sidewalk, this country reserves the right to arrest you and use violence on you.--Percy

There is a form of Christian Zionism here in the United States and I would expect the protesters to eventually attack the idea of any religion claiming superiority and/or exclusivity over others to get flack. When I used to go to church we were taught that God Blesses those who Bless Israel and Curses those who curse Israel.Im sure that quite a few conservative Christians still believe that. I can see AZPaul now. He is chomping at the bit to go protest against organized religion!

You brought him up. Why is he relevant?

Because he chose Capitalism over Socialism. He chose wisely.

Actually it was i who brought his name up. See Message 321.Yes, he later became an asshole. And Eldridge Cleaver as well - they kind of fell off the bus.

I typically watch Friedman to see science interviews. But YouTube linked to a debate between Benny Morris and Norman Finkelstein.I then followed a link, to see a Natanyahu interview.I was thinking he might make an argument we rarely hear in the United States media - the "proportionality" argument which can often show that Israeli civilian deaths AS A PERCENTAGE OF ITS TOTAL POPULATION are actually higher than our 9/11 2001 death.I did not watch the interview long enough to see if he made a point that needs making.(Netanyahu did point out that he is proud that over 2 million Israeli citizens are non-Jewish Arabs. He said always makes a big point that BOTH people should live together and be vociferously opposes the view that people should not live together.)It seems Israel is accused of allowing a false flag attack on 10/7/2023, and Americans tend to feel Israel is is killing a "disproportionately" large number of Gazans compared to the 10/7 attacks - false flag or not.The "disproportion" argument ALWAYS gets used against Israel, as a way to criticize the responses.But, it's fair to ask:If Israel is "responsible" for its response, then why did Americans not make the same argument against THEIR OWN POLICIES post-9/11?The Afghanistan invasion was a war that never ended, and when IT FINALLY ENDED, we heard nothing but bitching from the American polity and media. The argument was all about how "irresponsible" it was to "cut and run".You can't have it both ways.I'm not making any arguments about the proper policy in Gaza, but I just wish the same standards would be applied to Israel, as one applies elsewhere. There has always been an unfair "double standard" imposed on Israel, and even fairly anti- war folks like myself can't help but notice.I feel the worldwide double standard is what contributed to the 10/7 attacks, and possibly in a major way.

Would you say that Iran,Hezbollah, The Houthis and Hamas are more Marxist than Capitalist? I feel that the whole world is in a Spiritual War of sorts...a war of ideas and ideologies. Percy has a point in that Israel should examine its own behavior, but even the protesting college students here in America need to know the drawbacks of Marxism. Or do they?

Why do you feel he chose wisely? What business was he in? How successful was he. Is this all you know about him. Weird that you define the success of a person as how much knew they make as opposed to the good they do. Yet you seem to be at the low end of pay and an old man.

Those drawbacks have a long way to go to even be in the same galaxy as the drawbacks of Fascism. Marxism has never been implemented anywhere without immediate corruption by Fascists. Besides, it isn't Marxism you spit on - it's Socialism.

Percy does not think "Israel should examine its own behavior." Percy thinks it long ago went way beyond
that. Israel claims its survival is at stake to justify its evil acts, but they know what they're doing is evil. No self-examination is necessary.Jews were hated around the world without reason, but then they acquired their own country and proceeded over time to provide the world a legitimate reason, never more so than the current day.--Percy