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Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Taq
Member
Posts: 10139
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 286 of 371 (917869)
04-19-2024 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Phat
04-19-2024 8:04 AM


Re: Israel Retaliates For Iran Missle Attack
Phat writes:
It was a measured Israeli response to Iran's Drone and Missile attack.
Attacks from both sides were all for show. Iran informed the world that they were going to launch missiles at Israel, even giving their flight path so that they could be shot down without hitting anything. It was Iran's way of saving face.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Phat, posted 04-19-2024 8:04 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10139
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 287 of 371 (917870)
04-19-2024 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Rahvin
02-24-2024 6:08 PM


Re: In Your Own Words
Just saw that the post I am replying to is from Feb, so the questions are open to the floor.
Rahvin writes:
Here's a hint - Palestinian support for Hamas increased with the Gaza invasion from Israel. Violent oppression breeds support for Hamas. Peace is what weakens and dismantles Hamas!
So what is Israel supposed to do? Just let thousands of their citizens be slaughtered every few months from Hamas raids? Continually have rockets launched at their citizens?
What's the solution here? This isn't some underground terrorist organization within Gaza. This is the government of Gaza doing this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Rahvin, posted 02-24-2024 6:08 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Rahvin, posted 04-19-2024 8:05 PM Taq has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 288 of 371 (917913)
04-19-2024 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Taq
04-19-2024 10:49 AM


Re: In Your Own Words
So what is Israel supposed to do? Just let thousands of their citizens be slaughtered every few months from Hamas raids?
I'm not going to get into the ways in which those premises are misleading, because it frankly doesnt matter.
"Terrorism" is Public Relations with violence. Hamas wants and needs the support of the Palestiniam people, and more than that, they want and need the sympathy of people abroad to provide political pressure for material support from sympathetic nations (read this more as: countries who would like to see the Israeli state destabilized; people sympathize, nations only care about position and power).
Military action in civilian locations are a terrible idea. The actual military targets just fade away into the populace. What you wind up doing is just killing and oppressing civilians...justifying every word that your opposition uses as recruitment.
Hamas gains recruitment when Israel oppresses Palestinians. This should be easy to imagine.
The solution therefore is to....not oppress Palestinians. You literally cannot win a "war" against terrorism. Al Qaeda still exists. ISIS still exists. The Taliban still exists and may be stronger than before. We learned the lessons of neighborhood-fighting and anti-terrorism the hard way.
Remember all the "hearts and minds" stuff from Afghanistan? It was true, and the problem is that it's not an issue that the military could solve.
What Israel should be doing is seeking reconciliation, not genocide. Palestinians have absolutely legitimate grievances against Israel, stemming all the way before the Israeli state was formed from their literal backyards. Stop the checkpoints. Stop the settlements (which are already in violation of multiple international agreements). Either recognize a Palestinian state according to the pre-1960s borders, or grant Palestinians full recognition and citizenship under Israeli law along with the "right of return." Severely punish Israeli citizens and military personnel who abuse and murder Palestinians. Investigate such actions in good faith. Stop indefinitely imprisoning Palestinians without charges.
No more bombings. Convince the Palestinian people to turn against Hamas themselves; if you treat others as friends, they will be friendly to you. If you murder their children in airstrikes and try to literally kill everyone through famine...the outcome should be obvious.
Stop being the bad guys in the view of the Palestinians.
If you have the power, you have the responsibility.
The Palestinian people have no power. Both figuratively and mostly literally.
The Israelis have all of the power. They take territory and murder and rape and imprison with impunity. They have a full modern military, nuclear weapons, the Iron Dome for defense against those rockets, and are under precisely zero existential threat from Palestinians.
Occasionally Hamas gets some rockets through. Rarely they carry out a successful "real" attack like Oct 7. They cannot hurt Israel, the state. This doesnt make them good guys. It makes them oppressed people reacting with violence to stop the oppression and violence directed at their own people.
This isn't some underground terrorist organization within Gaza. This is the government of Gaza doing this.
Hamas is more complicated than that.
I'm going to make the assumption that you've watched Star Trek: Deeps Space Nine. Most of us are nerds here of the appropriate generations, I dont think it's an unsafe assumption.
Major Kira was a terrorist against Cardassian occupation. She did evil, very bad things. Murdered people, including their families. She did those things because she didnt have a lot of choices - the Cardassians were massacring her people and using them for slave labor and worse. Her own mother was a "comfort woman" for the Cardassian equivalent of Hitler, and while the specifics were complicated, she wasn't consenting.
The government of Bajor after the Cardassian withdrawal was made up in large part by resistance fighters. The terrorists. People who did evil things out of a desperate struggle against a larger-scale evil.
Just like in real life, the Bajoran and Cardassian legitimate animosity became generalized and deepened into racist hatred (the Cardassians were pretty racist from the start). You start to see violence that isn't just about resistance - it's about the hate that decades of resistance and oppression have caused. Just like in real life, racism and racially-motivated violence are increased by oppression.
Back to real life - if you want to see an example of what to actually do...look to Ireland.
The Troubles - Wikipedia
Decades of terrorism, fueled by religious, political, and nationalistic differences.
Just like with Israel and Palestine, "ceasefires" declared and broken.
Finally, the Good Friday Agreement.
Good Friday Agreement - Wikipedia
Not a military action to wipe out all paramilitary fighters. Not a mass bombing campaign. Not famine. Recognition, legitimacy, compromise, and peace.
It will still be generations before the bad blood from The Troubles is truly gone. They can do it, if they hold to the peace. That means that many will never find justice. Killers walk free. Old grudges and pain cant be erased, but they chose peace instead of acting on them, to give those wounds time to heal with new generations who won't have suffered that pain.
The leading political party in Northern Ireland, Sinn Fein, was a terrorist organization. Thanks to the peace process, they're legitimate political leaders now. The vice-president of Sinn Fein is now the First minister of Northern Ireland.
We know what works. We know what doesnt work. We also know what happens when people are oppressed - even our fiction tells us truths about conflicts like these, even if we have to dress them up in silly prosthetic makeup and exaggerate characters.
What Israel is doing doesnt work. It just creates more loss. Their response to Oct 7, and the complicity of Israel's allies (especially the US), will in future decades be regarded as a source of great shame and a tragic, avoidable loss of human lives.

-->“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

-->Nihil supernum --> -->


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Taq, posted 04-19-2024 10:49 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-19-2024 8:22 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 314 by Taq, posted 04-22-2024 10:53 AM Rahvin has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 289 of 371 (917914)
04-19-2024 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Rahvin
04-19-2024 8:05 PM


Why does nobody ever ask why Egypt can't give Gaza 5000 miles of Sinai?
Israel gave Egypt a lot of land during the peace deal with Egypt?
Gaza does seem to have become an open-air prison.
But Israel gave up Sinai to Egypt.
Israel pulled out of Gaza almost 2 decades ago.
Gaza is only about 150 sq miles.
With millions of people.
I only wonder why there are only ever selective demands and questions.
(I am not taking sides on the larger issue)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Rahvin, posted 04-19-2024 8:05 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Theodoric, posted 04-19-2024 8:43 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9265
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 290 of 371 (917915)
04-19-2024 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by LamarkNewAge
04-19-2024 8:22 PM


Re: Why does nobody ever ask why Egypt can't give Gaza 5000 miles of Sinai?
Yeah fuck the Bedouins. Who gives a shit about them. Let's move a million people into a desert and a place that experiences below freezing temps in the winter.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-19-2024 8:22 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-19-2024 9:00 PM Theodoric has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 291 of 371 (917916)
04-19-2024 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Theodoric
04-19-2024 8:43 PM


Re: Why does nobody ever ask why Egypt can't give Gaza 5000 miles of Sinai?
The Nile water can be piped to the border between Egypt and Gaza. Solar panels can be built. Roads can be paved. An electrical grid can be laid out.
Public works projects can employ all Gazans - in Egypt and in Gaza.
What are you saying about nomads in Sinai?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Theodoric, posted 04-19-2024 8:43 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Theodoric, posted 04-19-2024 9:26 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9265
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 292 of 371 (917917)
04-19-2024 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by LamarkNewAge
04-19-2024 9:00 PM


Re: Why does nobody ever ask why Egypt can't give Gaza 5000 miles of Sinai?
I do believe the Nile water is already being used. The Bedouins already live in the Sinai. Why should they give up their lands? Why should the Gazans be forced to move again?
Understanding and managing new risks on the Nile with the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam | Nature Communications
Worsening drought of Nile basin under shift in atmospheric circulation, stronger ENSO and Indian Ocean dipole | Scientific Reports

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-19-2024 9:00 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-19-2024 9:41 PM Theodoric has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 293 of 371 (917918)
04-19-2024 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Theodoric
04-19-2024 9:26 PM


Re: Why does nobody ever ask why Egypt can't give Gaza 5000 miles of Sinai?
How many nomads live in Gaza?
They own what exactly?
Who said Gazans are forced to move to Egypt?
I said nobody ever asks Egypt to give land, when it could help the situation, a lot.
It was a similar situation on the West Bank. The West Bank had Palestinians who had Jordanian passports, until Jordan ceased claims to the West Bank. Part of the reason Jordan pulled out was that the Palestinians were questioning whether King Hussein should lead the country.
The Palestinians have been cut off from the surrounding lands, but it is only Israel that gets criticized for the borders. It does not seem like a broad, balanced, approximation of what has been going on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Theodoric, posted 04-19-2024 9:26 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Theodoric, posted 04-19-2024 9:45 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9265
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 294 of 371 (917919)
04-19-2024 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by LamarkNewAge
04-19-2024 9:41 PM


LNA continues to troll
If you don't want to actually debate or respond to what people say then crawl back under your rock

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-19-2024 9:41 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-19-2024 10:02 PM Theodoric has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 295 of 371 (917920)
04-19-2024 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Theodoric
04-19-2024 9:45 PM


Re: LNA continues to troll
go fuck yourself.
you did not respond at all when i talked about egypts role.
egypt controlled gaza at one point.
i could not get to that because you are such an ass hole
a worthless asshole

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Theodoric, posted 04-19-2024 9:45 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2024 8:19 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 296 of 371 (917921)
04-19-2024 10:28 PM


Wikipedia Blockade of the Gaza Strip supported by Palestinian Authority
This is not just an issue of Israel causing the open-air prison.
Blockade of the Gaza Strip
quote:
Palestinian
Fatah
Linked with the conflict following his party's loss in the 2006 election, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas approved the Egyptian border restrictions by the new regime, purportedly aimed at protecting Egypt from danger. In 2014 and subsequent years, Abbas supported Egypt's crackdown on smuggling tunnels and welcomed the flooding of the tunnels by Egypt in coordination with the PA.[256][257][258]
In 2010, Abbas declared that he opposed lifting the Israeli naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because this would bolster Hamas. Egypt also supported this position.[259]
In 2016, Abbas objected to the entrance of Qatari fuel to the Gaza electricity plant via Israel, because his PA would be unable to collect taxes on the fuel.[260]
In 2016 most Palestinian parties welcomed Turkish initiatives to end the strict Israeli siege on the Gaza Strip by building a seaport for the movement of people and goods. This step was condemned by Fatah and the PA, a senior Fatah leader saying that his movement would not allow this to happen, while the Fatah Executive Committee said this was an Israeli trick to separate Gaza from the West Bank. In turn a Hamas official condemned the PA's position; "This position proves that the PA is part of the Israeli-led siege which has been imposed on Gaza for ten years".[261]
In 2017, the PA government imposed its own sanctions against Gaza, including, among other things, cutting off salaries to thousands of PA employees, as well as financial assistance to hundreds of families in the Gaza Strip. The PA initially said it would stop paying for the electricity and fuel that Israel supplies to the Gaza Strip, but after a year partially backtracked.[262]
Again, the border problems are complex.
I always hated the tight borders and blockages.
But, now we can see the border might have been too soft, on the Israeli side. It can be argued.

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9265
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 297 of 371 (917930)
04-20-2024 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by LamarkNewAge
04-19-2024 10:02 PM


Re: LNA continues to troll
Lol.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-19-2024 10:02 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 7:28 PM Theodoric has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 298 of 371 (917972)
04-20-2024 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Theodoric
04-20-2024 8:19 AM


Re: LNA continues to troll
You have little reason to laugh when you are a total, complete, snitch.
An opportunistic snitch.
There is no humor when you completely lack comrodery and decency, with those you check off as opponents.
Your lie that I was in favor of expelling Gazans was particularly disgusting.
An opportunistic lie, that completely lacked any decency whatsoever.
You refused to defend your disgusting lie that I was arguing for stealing homes of Sinai Egyptians also.
You are a disgrace.
Funny.
Hilarious

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2024 8:19 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2024 7:49 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9265
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 299 of 371 (917973)
04-20-2024 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by LamarkNewAge
04-20-2024 7:28 PM


Re: LNA continues to troll
comrodery
What word is this supposed to be?
Troll.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 7:28 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 8:31 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 301 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 8:35 PM Theodoric has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 300 of 371 (917974)
04-20-2024 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Theodoric
04-20-2024 7:49 PM


Re: LNA continues to troll
Keep telling lies about people's positions.
Keep letting people know what ab obvious disgrace you are
You never did apply statistics to anything, even though you said that was important, when debating history.
My first post - in years - was a request to you to apply statistical analysis.
You brought it up yourself.
So I gave you evidence,but you only attacked me.
I still say you are a piece of shit who will never apply statistics and analysis.
Let's see...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2024 7:49 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2024 8:46 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
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