Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9175 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: sirs
Post Volume: Total: 917,651 Year: 4,908/9,624 Month: 256/427 Week: 2/64 Day: 0/2 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Percy
Member
Posts: 22622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 196 of 378 (913590)
11-19-2023 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by marc9000
11-18-2023 9:38 PM


Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
marc9000 writes:
Religious people see things through the lens of their religion.
Secular people have the same type of lens. They worship the earth, the government, have fears of weather, etc.
Just as lack of hair is not a hair style, the absence of religion is not just another religious denomination. With no fantasy sky daddy obscuring their perceptions, secular people are free to focus on reality.
Over 10,000 Palestinian civilians have already been killed. Killing doesn't stop killing.
Not when civilians are killed, no. But when terrorist leaders are killed it does. Osama Bin Laden hasn't killed a single person in the last 12 years. The 10,000 deaths were mostly all shields that the chicken Hamas leaders hide behind. A few of the terrorist leaders have been killed.
Killing Bin Laden didn't prevent other terrorists from taking over leadership of Al-Queda and continuing its work, or prevent other terrorist organizations from thriving.
And you seem to value Jewish lives much more than Palestinian lives.
Can't argue with that, I guess I have something in common with Harry Truman, he seemed to value American lives more than Japanese lives.
All lives are sacred, something you'd think a religious person would understand. You seem to be answering the WWJD question wrong at every turn.
Let's see, as you said above, the West Bank (Palestinians) elect terrorists to lead them.
Regarding elections, I was describing Gaza, not the West Bank. Palestinians needed protection from Israeli transgressions and Hamas's political branch committed to provide that. Israel is responsible for driving support for the very terrorist organizations that haunt them.
Israel has always been a staunch ally of the U.S. Israeli soldiers target other soldiers, they don't burn babies alive and rape and kill women like Palestinian terrorists do.
If the news reporting from Gaza is accurate, over 4000 children and over 3000 women have been killed by Israeli soldiers so far.
Your statement about what I value more is correct.
I had no doubt.
Links? You want links? To events that have been in the news for decades? I wouldn't know where to start.
I was only thinking of forum rule #5.
Rule 5 is about bare links. I posted no bare links.
Biden's support of Israel seems to show no knowledge of them,...
Biden seems very much aware. I think his actions are inadequate and wrong-headed, but he seems very aware of the discrimination and violence against Palestinians committed by Israeli civilians and by the Israeli military and encouraged by its government. Here's one example from yesterday: Biden warns U.S. could sanction Israeli settlers who attack Palestinians
Surely there would be other readers here besides just myself who could be enlightened by links, maybe the sources of those links.
It's all common knowledge and just a Google away for those who have been living under a rock.
What is being said that you think isn't true?
That there will be peace if there is a cease-fire. There WAS peace, It ended on October 7th. Israel didn't take the initiative to end it.
It sounds like we both want Israel to cease hostilities in Gaza that primarily victimize the Palestinian population rather than Hamas. This seems counter to your earlier statement valuing Israeli lives more than Palestinian.
You have an interesting definition of insurrection.
It is interesting, in that it doesn't flip flop according to which party the insurrectionists belong to. It is true that the accusation by Democrats that those at the Capitol on January 6th were "trying to overturn the election", was repeated over and over and over and over again by the mainstream media, but if they would just come down from their emotional frenzy for 30 seconds they'd realize that a riot by a few hundred people doesn't come within light-years of being able to overturn a U.S. presidential election.
You don't have to have a reasonable chance of succeeding to be guilty of insurrection. That being said, the combination of breaching the capitol and halting proceedings, the false elector slates, the rejection of valid elector slates, and the pressure on Vice President Mike Pence to step out of his ceremonial role and influence the proceedings regarding validation of elector slates, allowed the insurrection to come much more scarily close to succeeding than many realize.
But the key point here is that you only have to attempt insurrection to be guilty of it. Your chances of success are not a factor in determining guilt or innocence. There have been a number of convictions for insurrection on January 6th (in legal terms the charge is actually sedition). The judge in the Proud Boys case, Timothy J. Kelly, was appointed by Trump, while the judge in the Oath Keepers case, Amit P. Mehta, was appointed by Obama, so one would tend to conclude that jurists from opposite ends of the political spectrum oversaw legal proceedings that arrived at very similar conclusions.
At this point your message drifted even further off the subject of Israel, but you later returned to it:
The call is for Israel to begin treating the Palestinians like human beings. Ceasing to steal their land (West Bank) and kill them (West Bank and Gaza) is what simple humanity demands.
History shows that no matter how much Israel caves, the terrorist attacks against them won't stop.
Israel hasn't caved at all. If anything their mistreatment of Palestinians has only gotten worse through the years.

--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by marc9000, posted 11-18-2023 9:38 PM marc9000 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 11-19-2023 12:13 PM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


(1)
Message 197 of 378 (913591)
11-19-2023 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Percy
11-19-2023 8:49 AM


Addressing The Right To Exist
Let's update the reality of this war from the BBC's perspective which we can freely comment on.
I use several media sources to form my own perspective on what is actually happening.
Percy writes:
With no fantasy sky daddy obscuring their perceptions, secular people are free to focus on reality.
Secular people not only focus on reality, they attempt to define the rules. This behavior causes clashes between global ideological groups. Global politics is about nothing more than arriving at a rational consensus.
If one could argue that following the Bible obscures rational perspectives, I would invite them to provide examples, from scripture, that show a more sane alternative than is being reported.
Israel is not special. They should be leaders in global morality, but they are behind the times and are judged by popular consensus. As for Hamas, they are in fact a terrorist organization and are a poor example of a government leading its people to a better end.
Meanwhile, at the BBC: (11/19/2023)
BBC:

  • Hundreds of people have been leaving al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City - the site that Israeli forces have been searching for days
  • Pictures show columns of Palestinians fleeing on foot, some waving white flags
  • A journalist among those leaving the hospital said there was gunfire and explosions overnight, and that bulldozers had dug huge holes in the hospital yard
  • The hospital director said the Israeli military had ordered an evacuation but the IDF denied this, saying it helped people leave after the director requested it
  • The Hamas-run health ministry says 120 patients remain at the hospital, along with premature babies
  • Israel accuses Hamas of running a command center under the hospital - it has shown pictures of an alleged tunnel shaft and weapons as evidence so far
  • Reports from elsewhere in northern Gaza say a UN school used as a shelter has been hit - Israel says it's investigating the claims
  • The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says more than 12,000 people have been killed in the territory since Israel began its campaign against Hamas
  • It began heavily bombing the Gaza Strip after Hamas killed more than 1,200 people and took more than 200 hostages in the 7 October attacks on Israel
  • In my opinion, Israel already knows that one cannot totally separate Hamas from the Palestinians of Gaza. It is as if Gaza is governed by a terrorist-leaning government of which the people themselves elected and support. The entire country is in effect a human shield against Israeli militarism. The UN is going to have to step in to manage winding down this war.
    Religion plays a role in perception. Israel believes that "never again" will they be victimized. They believe that Israel has a mandate from God Himself to the land they are on. Even if the land is politically given away or given back to its prior occupants, Israeli settlers will go and occupy it. American conservative Christians support Israel while American humanists support Palestine. The solution should incorporate both rather than either/or.
    quote:
    The Hamas-run health ministry says 120 patients remain at the hospital, along with premature babies
    In my opinion, Hamas is using Palestinians as props to garner global support and sympathy. The only way to get rid of Hamas in the hearts and minds of oppressed Palestinians is to provide them a better alternative. With indoctrination from birth, that solution may be too late.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 196 by Percy, posted 11-19-2023 8:49 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 198 by Percy, posted 11-19-2023 4:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 199 by Theodoric, posted 11-20-2023 8:11 AM Phat has replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22622
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 198 of 378 (913595)
    11-19-2023 4:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 197 by Phat
    11-19-2023 12:13 PM


    Re: Addressing The Right To Exist
    Phat writes:
    Percy writes:
    With no fantasy sky daddy obscuring their perceptions, secular people are free to focus on reality.
    Secular people not only focus on reality, they attempt to define the rules.
    Reality sets the rules.
    If one could argue that following the Bible obscures rational perspectives, I would invite them to provide examples, from scripture, that show a more sane alternative than is being reported.
    ...
    They believe that Israel has a mandate from God Himself to the land they are on.
    Beliefs like this run counter to reality.
    American conservative Christians support Israel...
    Largely true.
    ...while American humanists support Palestine.
    While some humanists undoubtedly take sides, as a group, no.
    My main point is that we shouldn't be supporting a country that is engaged in war crimes. As we speak.
    --Percy​

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 197 by Phat, posted 11-19-2023 12:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 9283
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 2.1


    (4)
    Message 199 of 378 (913599)
    11-20-2023 8:11 AM
    Reply to: Message 197 by Phat
    11-19-2023 12:13 PM


    Re: Addressing The Right To Exist
    I’m pro-Palestinian AND vehemently anti-Hamas. I’m also pro-Israel AND vehemently anti-Netanyahu.
    Those views are not contradictory.

    What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 197 by Phat, posted 11-19-2023 12:13 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 200 by Phat, posted 11-20-2023 12:13 PM Theodoric has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 200 of 378 (913601)
    11-20-2023 12:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 199 by Theodoric
    11-20-2023 8:11 AM


    Re: Addressing The Right To Exist
    I’m pro-Palestinian AND vehemently anti-Hamas. I’m also pro-Israel AND vehemently anti-Netanyahu.
    I think that im pretty much in agreement with you. Right now, Israel has a unity government, so time will tell which type of leadership emerges from that.
    Hamas simply has to be abolished, vanquished, or squashed...take your pick. The reality is, however, that this may be next to impossible. Do you see it any differently?
    Has the cultural brainwashing by this terror organization blinded the average Palestinian, many under 21? Percy tends to blame Israel for all of the wrongs in that conflict, but Israel should not be vilified simply for being powerful.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 199 by Theodoric, posted 11-20-2023 8:11 AM Theodoric has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 201 by nwr, posted 11-20-2023 12:56 PM Phat has replied
     Message 202 by Percy, posted 11-20-2023 8:26 PM Phat has replied

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 6421
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 3.5


    (1)
    Message 201 of 378 (913602)
    11-20-2023 12:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 200 by Phat
    11-20-2023 12:13 PM


    Re: Addressing The Right To Exist
    Percy tends to blame Israel for all of the wrongs in that conflict, but Israel should not be vilified simply for being powerful.
    I don't think that's fair to Percy. His objection is to USA (and our tax dollars) taking sides. I think he would prefer us to remain neutral.
    I have a mixed view on that. As best I can tell, Biden is putting pressure on Netanyahu to take a more humanist approach. Biden's major concern may be with trying to prevent Iran from taking advantage of what is going on.

    Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 200 by Phat, posted 11-20-2023 12:13 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 204 by Phat, posted 11-23-2023 11:03 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22622
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 3.7


    (5)
    Message 202 of 378 (913603)
    11-20-2023 8:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 200 by Phat
    11-20-2023 12:13 PM


    Re: Addressing The Right To Exist
    Phat writes:
    Right now, Israel has a unity government, so time will tell which type of leadership emerges from that.
    Netanyahu has already shown us "which type of leadership." He continued the policy of dispossessing Palestinians of their property on the West Bank. He also continued the policy of demolishing the houses of Palestinians (according to Wikipedia it's "55,048 Palestinian structures as of 2022"). And he's currently leading a campaign of murder against Palestinian civilians.
    Hamas simply has to be abolished, vanquished, or squashed...take your pick. The reality is, however, that this may be next to impossible. Do you see it any differently?
    If that's what you think should happen to Hamas for massacring civilians, what do you think should happen to Israel for massacring civilians?
    Percy tends to blame Israel for all of the wrongs in that conflict,...
    No I don't. What I've said, several times now, is that Israel's ongoing mistreatment of Palestinians creates a breeding ground for the very terrorists who victimize them. It's a completely wrongheaded and counterproductive policy. Also, when a country's military murders civilians it's a war crime, and I don't think the U.S. should support governments engaged in war crimes. "They did it first," is not a good reason. Netanyahu pledged "mighty vengeance," and that's just what he's doing.
    ...but Israel should not be vilified simply for being powerful.
    Israel is not being vilified for being powerful. They're being vilified for responding to Hamas terrorism with the murder of innocent civilians.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 200 by Phat, posted 11-20-2023 12:13 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 203 by Phat, posted 11-21-2023 11:57 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 203 of 378 (913606)
    11-21-2023 11:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 202 by Percy
    11-20-2023 8:26 PM


    Re: Addressing The Right To Exist
    Netanyahu has already shown us "which type of leadership." He continued the policy of dispossessing Palestinians of their property on the West Bank. He also continued the policy of demolishing the houses of Palestinians (according to Wikipedia it's "55,048 Palestinian structures as of 2022"). And he's currently leading a campaign of murder against Palestinian civilians.
    His approval rating is low. Israel will elect a moderate next opportunity.
    Phat writes:
    Hamas simply has to be abolished, vanquished, or squashed...take your pick. The reality is, however, that this may be next to impossible. Do you see it any differently?
    Percy writes:
    If that's what you think should happen to Hamas for massacring civilians, what do you think should happen to Israel for massacring civilians?
    Except that nobody on earth can squash Israel except the United States. And we won't.
    Percy writes:
    Israel is not being vilified for being powerful. They're being vilified for responding to Hamas terrorism with the murder of innocent civilians.
    I think that much of the civilian casualties are the fault of Hamas.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 202 by Percy, posted 11-20-2023 8:26 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 204 of 378 (913621)
    11-23-2023 11:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 201 by nwr
    11-20-2023 12:56 PM


    Lessons Learned: The Taliban and Hamas.
    A Four Day "pause" starts tomorrow in Gaza.
    BBC:

    Summary
  • A long-anticipated four-day pause in the fighting between Israel and Hamas is due to begin shortly
  • The temporary ceasefire will start at 07:00 local time (05:00 GMT) and the first group of 13 hostages held by Hamas will be freed at 16:00, according to Qatari mediators
  • Under the deal, Hamas will release 50 hostages from Gaza over four days and Israel will free 150 Palestinian prisoners
  • More aid will also be allowed into Gaza; a top UN official says he witnessed "unspeakable suffering" while visiting the Strip
  • Fighting has continued in the lead-up to the pause, which will be the first since the brutal conflict began nearly seven weeks ago
  • Hamas’s attacks on 7 October killed 1,200 people and saw about 240 taken hostage
  • Since then, Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry says more than 14,000 people have been killed in Israel's retaliatory campaign
  • Earlier, I commented that the civilian casualties were partly the fault of Hamas. I say this because evidence has shown that Hamas mingles with the population at large, using them as a political statement that they are ALL in this together. Netanyahu vows to eliminate Hamas and in order to do that, some civilians will be involved so long as they are near the sights that are being targeted. This pause is largely symbolic and wont slow this war down anytime soon.
    It seems that most nations are against a World War. Nations make mistakes. As an example, the war in Afghanistan was effectively thwarted once the United States diverted its attention to Iraq. It could well be that we are making the same mistake in diverting our primary attention from Ukraine and focusing on Israel. As I said earlier, no nation has the power available to stop Israel, except the United States. Even a United Nations resolution likely won't have the effect.
    Can Israel eliminate Hamas? The answer is likely the same answer as to why we could not eliminate the Taliban in Afghanistan.
    Civilian casualties in Afghanistan were nearly 50,000 over 20 years.
    Civilian casualties are an unfortunate part of war.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 201 by nwr, posted 11-20-2023 12:56 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 205 by Percy, posted 11-24-2023 7:44 AM Phat has replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22622
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 205 of 378 (913627)
    11-24-2023 7:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 204 by Phat
    11-23-2023 11:03 PM


    Re: Lessons Learned: The Taliban and Hamas.
    Let me pose a hypothetical scenario analogous to the situation in Israel and Gaza.
    You're a policeman confronting a man with a gun holding a hostage in front of him as a shield. He states that he is going to kill you and other policeman while he can still get shots off. Instead of retreating to consider possible solutions you shoot the civilian dead, he falls to the ground, and then you shoot the man with the gun. Problem solved, except that his son considers it state-sponsored murder. The son of the murdered civilian feels similarly and joins him. Eventually you have to do it all over again, but on a larger scale. Shoot-em-up, rinse, repeat.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 204 by Phat, posted 11-23-2023 11:03 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 206 by Phat, posted 11-24-2023 8:34 AM Percy has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 206 of 378 (913628)
    11-24-2023 8:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 205 by Percy
    11-24-2023 7:44 AM


    Rinse and Repeat Globally
    Percy writes:
    ...Problem solved, except that his son considers it state-sponsored murder. The son of the murdered civilian feels similarly and joins him. Eventually you have to do it all over again, but on a larger scale. Shoot-em-up, rinse, repeat.
    I just watched a documentary on the former Shah of Iran, The Shahs main opponent, Khomeini, gained his strength through the ostracized lower class. The state was perceived as always being antagonistic towards the common man while the clergy welcomed them with open arms, insisting on a more fundamental interpretation of Islamic life. The Shah wanted to modernize and end feudalism, which he did. The lower class were still marginalized, however, and backed the eventual overthrow of the Shah.
    So my question: If Hamas is backed by fundamental Islam, and supported by the poor and marginalized, how can Israel expect to eliminate the root of Hamas by destroying over 50% of the homes in Palestine?
    The next question is this: If a two state solution was enforced in Israel, enforced by the UN instead of Israel itself, would terrorism be prevented or would there always be a conflict?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 205 by Percy, posted 11-24-2023 7:44 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 207 by Percy, posted 11-24-2023 2:41 PM Phat has replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22622
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 207 of 378 (913630)
    11-24-2023 2:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 206 by Phat
    11-24-2023 8:34 AM


    Re: Rinse and Repeat Globally
    I'm going to need some help understanding how your response addresses anything I said.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 206 by Phat, posted 11-24-2023 8:34 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 209 by Phat, posted 11-24-2023 3:23 PM Percy has replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22622
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 208 of 378 (913631)
    11-24-2023 3:15 PM


    How the World Sees Us
    More and more of the world is seeing us as complicit in the genocidal war crimes being committed by Israel, e.g.:
    We must tell Israel in no uncertain terms and in a way the whole world can hear that we cannot support them while they are committing war crimes.
    The loss of Israel would be a serious blow. Israel helps anchor our presence in the Middle East and has been a net positive for our foreign policy in the region.
    But as costly as the loss of Israel would be, their current actions are unsupportable. We need the Arab world to become increasingly friendly to the United States, but if we continue supporting Israel then fewer and fewer Arab nations will remain friendly to us. We're alienating an entire people, and that will in the end cost us far more than the loss of Israel. Murdering civilians is self-evidently wrong. The entire world can see that we're siding with genocide.
    Supporting Israel's right to exist and helping Israel withstand Arab efforts against them is legitimate foreign policy. Helping Israel commit crimes against humanity is not.
    --Percy

    Replies to this message:
     Message 210 by Phat, posted 11-24-2023 3:30 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
     Message 213 by Phat, posted 11-25-2023 8:20 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 209 of 378 (913632)
    11-24-2023 3:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 207 by Percy
    11-24-2023 2:41 PM


    Re: Rinse and Repeat Globally
    It was an analogy between Iran and Gaza. Iran was once pro-Western, as is Israel. The poor saw Western influence as a negative, partly due to religious indoctrination and partly due to the economic reality. The Shah was seen as helping the West as much or more than the marginalized in Iran. It is much the same with Gaza. The reason Hamas came to power is because the poor were and are marginalized.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 207 by Percy, posted 11-24-2023 2:41 PM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 211 by Percy, posted 11-25-2023 7:34 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18389
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 210 of 378 (913633)
    11-24-2023 3:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 208 by Percy
    11-24-2023 3:15 PM


    Re: How the World Sees Us
    That was an interesting yet sobering article. Before, in Ukraine, it was the West vs the Russian bully. Now, it is seemingly the globally marginalized versus a genocidal West. This is not good.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 208 by Percy, posted 11-24-2023 3:15 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024