Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9170 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,353 Year: 4,610/9,624 Month: 385/1,096 Week: 90/119 Day: 0/16 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   2024 US Presidential Election
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 872 of 942 (918362)
04-28-2024 12:30 PM


I think I've finally found a Trump nickname I like: Felonious Trump
For those with access, this is an excellent but scary analysis of why Trump gets so much support: We have a radical democracy. Will Trump voters destroy it?
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 873 by Phat, posted 04-29-2024 3:16 PM Percy has replied
 Message 875 by xongsmith, posted 04-29-2024 9:36 PM Percy has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 873 of 942 (918386)
04-29-2024 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 872 by Percy
04-28-2024 12:30 PM


Democracy By Definition
I dont have access. I know Trump is not the answer, but why specifically does the article suggest that (oh I dunno...30%?) of the American public be blamed for "destroying Democracy"? What I see everyday is bad for Democracy. It is bad to not only decriminalize but to go nearly so far as to legitimize retail theft and entitlement. It is bad to have a society at odds with each other, and it is worse now than ever before.
Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what needs improving in Democracy. If you are talking globally, you will have a lot of opposition. The global poor want to come up to "our" level even as our level is sinking to meet them. Democracy alone will not cure human misery nor the reality of human nature.
And Theodoric, why must you always bring up my house as if everyone in the world is entitled to one? Are you going to leave yours to any of the kids or will you will it to the Democratic party?
To me, Democracy means the freedom to achieve. freedom does not mean automatic entitlement for everyone. That is why I always talk about fiscal restraint. One cannot simply print up enough money to cover their needs. Government was never meant to have such discretionary control. I hear that Biden proposed a 40% capital gains tax. That sure helps the people get ahead!
Free from an authoritarian government.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 872 by Percy, posted 04-28-2024 12:30 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 874 by Taq, posted 04-29-2024 5:21 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 876 by Percy, posted 04-30-2024 9:40 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 877 by Theodoric, posted 04-30-2024 2:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10139
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(3)
Message 874 of 942 (918388)
04-29-2024 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 873 by Phat
04-29-2024 3:16 PM


Re: Democracy By Definition
Phat writes:
I dont have access. I know Trump is not the answer, but why specifically does the article suggest that (oh I dunno...30%?) of the American public be blamed for "destroying Democracy"? What I see everyday is bad for Democracy. It is bad to not only decriminalize but to go nearly so far as to legitimize retail theft and entitlement. It is bad to have a society at odds with each other, and it is worse now than ever before.
Bad policies are different than removing democracy altogether. It is one thing to disagree on how laws are enforced and implemented. It is quite different from saying that we should ignore the results of an election and let the current person stay in power after being voted out.
Also, the destruction of democratic institutions is destructive to democracies as well. Trump wants to remake law enforcement so that it is a political wing of MAGA. If you disagree with lax enforcement of laws, you will definitely not enjoy the politicization of justice under Trump.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by Phat, posted 04-29-2024 3:16 PM Phat has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2597
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 875 of 942 (918389)
04-29-2024 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 872 by Percy
04-28-2024 12:30 PM


nickname
Percy writes:
Felonious Trump
Naw, that was taken years ago by that certain bad guy in the monastery.
Sorry.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 872 by Percy, posted 04-28-2024 12:30 PM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 876 of 942 (918397)
04-30-2024 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 873 by Phat
04-29-2024 3:16 PM


Re: Democracy By Definition
Phat in Message 873 writes:
I dont have access. I know Trump is not the answer, but why specifically does the article suggest that (oh I dunno...30%?) of the American public be blamed for "destroying Democracy"?
Because they're the ones who don't believe in Democracy. They believe Trump should be the winner in any election, regardless of whether he gets the most electoral college votes are not. And they don't see it as a problem that the Republican candidate routinely gets millions fewer votes than the Democratic candidate.
The article is about how anti-democratic attitudes run deep through some segments of American society. Much of America, predominantly red America, does not believe in racial equality, separation of church and state, or universal suffrage. They give them lip service, but they don't really believe in the principles of the Declaration that all men are created equal and possess unalienable rights that include life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They believe these things should only be true for Christian white men.
Phat writes:
What I see everyday is bad for Democracy. It is bad to not only decriminalize but to go nearly so far as to legitimize retail theft and entitlement. It is bad to have a society at odds with each other, and it is worse now than ever before.
You're just echoing the same YouTube accusations without evidence or justification that you always do.
Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what needs improving in Democracy.
I didn't say anything about democracy needing improvement, but since you bring it up, increasing representation would be a good idea, meaning that red states should cease their efforts at reducing the voter roles in districts that don't support Republicans.
If you are talking globally, you will have a lot of opposition. The global poor want to come up to "our" level even as our level is sinking to meet them. Democracy alone will not cure human misery nor the reality of human nature.
You continually confuse forms of government with economic systems. Democracy is not synonymous with capitalism.
And Theodoric, why must you always bring up my house as if everyone in the world is entitled to one? Are you going to leave yours to any of the kids or will you will it to the Democratic party?
You've completely missed the point. If Theodoric is like most of his and not like you, he didn't have an abode given to him, which is quite likely the only reason you're able to keep your nose above water.
To me, Democracy means the freedom to achieve. freedom does not mean automatic entitlement for everyone.
You're getting this from your YouTube wingnuts and not from anyone here. No one here has said freedom means automatic entitlements for everyone. No one here speaks like that except you. You listen to the YouTube wingnuts accusing Democrats of saying these things, and then you come here and accuse us of saying them.
Why do you believe the YouTube wingnuts about what we believe and not us? We keep telling you what we think over and over again, but you ignore it and return to your YouTube wingnut accusations. Please stop bringing your YouTube addiction into the forum.
That is why I always talk about fiscal restraint.
If you're talking about fiscal restraint only because the YouTube wingnuts are telling you Democrats are demanding automatic entitlements for everyone then rest easy. Democrats aren't saying that, so you can relax.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by Phat, posted 04-29-2024 3:16 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9265
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 877 of 942 (918404)
04-30-2024 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 873 by Phat
04-29-2024 3:16 PM


Re: Democracy By Definition
Are you going to leave yours to any of the kids
Depends on whether they want it. Depends on whether my wife is still living there when she passes (I am 15 years older so odds are she will outlive me).
My kids are not going to be living their lives in anticipation of their inheritance. We do well but are not what I would consider wealthy.
or will you will it to the Democratic party?
Are you trying to be witty? Why would you say something so utterly stupid?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by Phat, posted 04-29-2024 3:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(3)
Message 878 of 942 (918555)
05-08-2024 1:49 PM


Re: I saw a Lex Friedman interview of Netanyahu a few weeks ago.
This is a reply to LamarkNewAge's Message 352 over in the Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973. thread where he offers his analysis of answers to poll questions from The Economist/YouGov Poll.
It's disappointing that so many people think the Holocaust was a myth or was exaggerated, and it's true that more Democrats/liberals/Biden-voters believe this than Republicans/conservatives/Trump-voters, but the numbers aren't all that different. For example, 81% of liberals disagree that the Holocaust was a myth and 85% of conservatives. Damning one political party and not the other because of a 5 to 10 percentage point difference in belief about something horrific doesn't make much sense.
Also, those poll questions are colored by the current political climate where liberals are more likely to be highly sympathetic to the plight of Palestinian civilians in Gaza, while conservatives are more likely to put the emphasis on wiping out Hamas while being less concerned about the civilians who happen to be inconveniently co-located.
You can see this in the answers to other questions in the poll. About "Importance of helping Israel", 18% of liberals agreed but 61% of conservatives. The low liberal percentage reflects not their belief that we should no longer be a supporter and ally of Israel but that we shouldn't be providing support to Israel now because they are using our assistance to slaughter innocent civilians.
The same can be seen on the flip side of the coin with "U.S. Humanitarian Support for Palestinians." 60% of liberals agree and only 11% of conservatives.
If a liberal were inclined to issue the same kind of false accusations as you they could easily find reams of them against conservatives because there is plenty of grist for the mill in that poll. But what we should instead strive for is constructive dialogue.
--Percy

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4483
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 879 of 942 (918564)
05-09-2024 3:01 PM


Brain Worms
So, I wonder if there is any brain material left, or are the worms in full control now?
Brain worms like the one RFK Jr. had are real and more common than you might think, doctor explains
Polls this morning show 14% of American voters support his candidacy for President of the United States.
We are so fucking doomed!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
If you are going to argue that evolution is false because it resembles your own beliefs then perhaps you should rethink your argument. - - Taq

Replies to this message:
 Message 880 by PaulK, posted 05-09-2024 3:31 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied
 Message 881 by DrJones*, posted 05-09-2024 10:25 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied
 Message 882 by Omnivorous, posted 05-10-2024 6:59 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17831
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 880 of 942 (918565)
05-09-2024 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 879 by Tanypteryx
05-09-2024 3:01 PM


Re: Brain Worms
The worms are firmly in control

This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-09-2024 3:01 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2292
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.2


(2)
Message 881 of 942 (918567)
05-09-2024 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 879 by Tanypteryx
05-09-2024 3:01 PM


Re: Brain Worms
So, I wonder if there is any brain material left, or are the worms in full control now?
probably died of starvation

This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-09-2024 3:01 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3998
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 882 of 942 (918568)
05-10-2024 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 879 by Tanypteryx
05-09-2024 3:01 PM


Re: Brain Worms
Kennedy says worms. I say snakes.
I live in Elise Stefanik's district, and I've got a tiny dead zone deep in my brain from a stroke. My qualifications are clear.
If something starts moving in there, I'm launching a PAC and running for her seat.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-09-2024 3:01 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 883 of 942 (918569)
05-10-2024 7:01 AM


The Firearm Issue
The firearm issue hasn't been often raised in this year's presidential election, but we shouldn't forget the terrible toll firearms exact on our society. Gun control laws make a big difference in firearm death rates, as reflected in this table which orders state firearm death rates from highest to lowest and includes which presidential candidate that state voted for in 2020:
StateDeath Rate2020 Vote
Mississippi33.9Trump
Louisiana29.1Trump
New Mexico27.8Biden
Alabama26.4Trump
Wyoming26.1Trump
Alaska25.2Trump
Montana25.1Trump
Arkansas23.3Trump
Missouri23.2Trump
Tennessee22.8Trump
South Carolina22.4Trump
Oklahoma21.2Trump
Kentucky21.1Trump
Georgia20.3Biden
Nevada19.8Biden
Indiana18.4Trump
Arizona18.3Biden
Colorado17.8Biden
Kansas17.3Trump
North Carolina17.3Trump
West Virginia17.3Trump
North Dakota16.8Trump
Delaware16.6Biden
Ohio16.5Trump
Idaho16.3Trump
Illinois16.1Biden
Texas15.6Trump
Michigan15.4Biden
Maryland15.2Biden
Oregon14.9Biden
Pennsylvania14.8Biden
South Dakota14.3Trump
Virginia14.3Biden
Florida14.1Trump
Utah13.9Trump
Wisconsin13.5Biden
Maine12.6Biden 3/Trump 1
Vermont11.9Biden
Iowa11.2Trump
Washington11.2Biden
Nebraska10.3Trump
Minnesota10Biden
California9Biden
New Hampshire8.3Biden
Connecticut6.7Biden
Rhode Island5.6Biden
New York5.4Biden
New Jersey5.2Biden
Hawaii4.8Biden
Massachusetts3.4Biden
There is a very strong correlation between high firearm death rates and voting for Trump. Trump is not the cause, but voting for him is reflective of attitudes that refuse to recognize the profound dangers that guns pose, that do not acknowledge that the presence of gun makes you less safe, not more.
Source: CDC Firearm Mortality by State
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 884 by Theodoric, posted 05-10-2024 7:31 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 885 by Taq, posted 05-10-2024 10:42 AM Percy has replied
 Message 887 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-10-2024 3:33 PM Percy has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9265
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 884 of 942 (918570)
05-10-2024 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 883 by Percy
05-10-2024 7:01 AM


Re: The Firearm Issue
What is also amazing is that Mississippi has 10x the rate of Massachusetts. The highest states at so amazingly high and the lowest are amazingly low.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 883 by Percy, posted 05-10-2024 7:01 AM Percy has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10139
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 885 of 942 (918573)
05-10-2024 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 883 by Percy
05-10-2024 7:01 AM


Re: The Firearm Issue
Percy writes:
There is a very strong correlation between high firearm death rates and voting for Trump. Trump is not the cause, but voting for him is reflective of attitudes that refuse to recognize the profound dangers that guns pose, that do not acknowledge that the presence of gun makes you less safe, not more.
This highlights the conclusion I have come to. Substantive gun regulation is not going to happen from the top down. It is going to have to be from the bottom up, from an overwhelming majority of citizens demanding a change. In the current climate there is a snowball's chance in hell of amending the constitution (even if we wanted to), and federal regulations limited by the constitution will not make a substantive change IMHO.
At the same time, part of me is against gun regulation for the same reason that I like fast cars with big, wasteful V8's. I know a Prius is better for the environment than a Mustang, but I want the Mustang. I'm sure Freud would have a few things to say about that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 883 by Percy, posted 05-10-2024 7:01 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 886 by Percy, posted 05-10-2024 11:32 AM Taq has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22565
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 886 of 942 (918575)
05-10-2024 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 885 by Taq
05-10-2024 10:42 AM


Re: The Firearm Issue
Taq writes:
I know a Prius is better for the environment than a Mustang, but I want the Mustang.
When you get your Tesla Model 3 Performance Version and put the pedal to the metal you won't even notice the missing roar of the engine because you'll be pressed so far back in the seat as you do 0-60 in 3.7 seconds. Or you can get the Active Sound package, choose between a V10 or V12 engine, and crank it up to 10. And instead of a handgun you'll be locked and loaded with a taser strutting 200,000 volts and 7 microcoulombs.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by Taq, posted 05-10-2024 10:42 AM Taq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024