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Author Topic:   2024 US Presidential Election
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(2)
Message 46 of 1173 (911634)
07-20-2023 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by GDR
07-20-2023 12:18 PM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
GDR writes:
I think that you can substitute Biden's name in your post for Trump and it would still hold true.
That's an extraordinary statement.
Could you elucidate the legal troubles facing Biden that you equate with Trump's pile of indictments?
Maybe it's not extraordinary; maybe it's just lame.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by GDR, posted 07-20-2023 12:18 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22695
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(4)
Message 47 of 1173 (911636)
07-20-2023 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by GDR
07-20-2023 12:18 PM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
GDR writes:
I think that you can substitute Biden's name in your post for Trump and it would still hold true.
Really? Let's do that and see how well it works:
Percy writes:
"Biden has a lot going on legally,..."
Like what?
Percy writes:
"...but the threat runs in both directions."
Unless you can come up things Biden has going on legally, this makes no sense.
Percy writes:
"He [Biden] alleges that all his legal problems are politically motivated..."
Same thing. Unless you can come up things Biden has going on legally, this makes no sense. He has no legal problems about which to claim they're politically motivated. He hasn't been indicted at the state or federal level, he's not being investigated at the state or federal level, and he's not the object of any civil suits. Trump is all of these. In fact, Trump is the first president in the history of the country to ever be criminally indicted or even criminally investigated.
Percy writes:
"...and threatens America's trust in its system of justice."
Biden argues for an independent Justice Department that does not do the president's bidding, while during his administration Trump repeatedly berated William Sessions for not doing his bidding and finally replaced him with Bill Barr, who believes in a presidency with nearly unchecked and imperial powers, or at least he did until the lead up to and aftermath of January 6th when he hopefully realized that checks on presidential power are essential because even a psychopath can become president.
And just last week Trump made a campaign announcement that if elected he wants to increase his power over the Justice Department. It was Congress that created the Justice Department after the Civil War, and after Nixon Congress developed additional laws, structures, and norms of law enforcement for the independence and neutrality for the Justice Department. But if Trump wins the election and Republicans control Congress at any time during his presidency then the independence of the Justice Department will likely disappear.
In conclusion, there is no similarity whatsoever between the two men on the nature of the independence of the Justice Department.
Percy writes:
"It will be hard to avoid eroding that trust because even if prosecutors raise the bar from 'beyond a reasonable doubt' to 'beyond any doubt', Trump supporters will still believe the charges were, uh, trumped up."
Unless you can find some indictments where Biden must be concerned about the strength of the evidence, this makes no sense in a Biden context.
That Trump supporters want to defend Trump is fine, but they must recognize the difficulty of the task before them. They should seek real evidence to support the things they say and not take refuge in false equivalencies between baseless assertions and fact-based positions, because there are real facts out there.
And definitely they shouldn't say silly things like (in effect), "Anything you say about Trump's legal difficulties are equally true of Biden." That's just daft.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by GDR, posted 07-20-2023 12:18 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-20-2023 10:57 PM Percy has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 48 of 1173 (911638)
07-20-2023 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Percy
07-20-2023 9:31 PM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
or even criminally investigated.
Ken Starr tried.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Percy, posted 07-20-2023 9:31 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 07-21-2023 7:42 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


(4)
Message 49 of 1173 (911639)
07-21-2023 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by GDR
07-20-2023 5:35 PM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
quote:
And that is your opinion. Others differ and you will all have to make up your own minds
Really? It seems an obvious fact to me. What evidence is there that Biden has done anything as awful as - to give just one example - Sharpiegate as I mentioned in Message 27? Do you really think that it is the job of Civil Servants to agree with the President on everything, no matter what the evidence? Don’t you think that things like Hurricane predictions should be free of political interference?
quote:
As for me, I'm not running to be President of anything,and so whether I'm a narcissist or not doesn't much matter.
So honesty and morality only matter in people running for President. And you’ll happily ignore that requirement for your side.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by GDR, posted 07-20-2023 5:35 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22695
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 50 of 1173 (911640)
07-21-2023 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Tanypteryx
07-20-2023 10:57 PM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
Tanypteryx writes:
or even criminally investigated.
Ken Starr tried.
Any Ken Starr findings could only have ended in impeachment before Congress, not a trial before a judge, and so his investigation was considered political, just as were the Trump impeachments. Clinton *was* impeached, for lying under oath and obstruction of justice. The Senate demurred from convicting him. Later when leaving office Clinton agreed to a plea deal where he pled guilty to contempt of court, a misdemeanor, for lying about his affair with Monica Lewinsky. He lost his license to practice law in Arkansas for five years.
The background for this is that he had stated under oath in court that "there's nothing going on between us" and contended that it was true at the time. The judge didn't buy it, and I'm happy she didn't because I've always believed that if you purposefully say something that creates an impression in people's mind other than the truth, and you're aware that you're creating that misimpression, then that is a lie, no matter how true in a technical sense what you said was.
I was not a Clinton fan, but despite that Ken Starr came across to me as absurdly relentless. His investigation spanned across four years. If you look that hard and find as little as he did you have to conclude that nothing significant happened, or least that there was just too little evidence left behind to prove anything happened.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-20-2023 10:57 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2023 8:19 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 52 by GDR, posted 07-21-2023 10:40 AM Percy has replied
 Message 54 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-21-2023 12:12 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


(3)
Message 51 of 1173 (911641)
07-21-2023 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
07-21-2023 7:42 AM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
quote:
I was not a Clinton fan, but despite that Ken Starr came across to me as absurdly relentless. His investigation spanned across four years.
It was even worse than you say. Starr started off by investigating Whitewater. He found nothing. Then he switched to the dubious “Troopergate” accusations. Clinton was finally nailed for trying to cover up an improper relationship with an intern which wasn’t even part of the Troopergate allegations. There is no doubt that Starr was out to get Clinton. Unlike the Mueller investigation into Trump.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 07-21-2023 7:42 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 52 of 1173 (911643)
07-21-2023 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
07-21-2023 7:42 AM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
I'm going to just reply in a general way. I am so fed up with the politics in both of our countries that is is hard to know who to put any trust in. I look at Trump and I see a man who is a misogynist without any sense of decorum. I look at Biden who is past his best before date and is mixed up in some questionable dealings with his son.
I get my news from the internet except for the small local paper. If I look at Fox then Biden is the devil incarnate and if I look at CNN they say the same thing about Trump. I'm not an American so I don't have the same degree of interest that you guys do. I do see in both our countries though a vey divided population with virtually nobody much in the centre any more.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 07-21-2023 7:42 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2023 10:55 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 55 by Percy, posted 07-21-2023 1:24 PM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


(3)
Message 53 of 1173 (911644)
07-21-2023 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by GDR
07-21-2023 10:40 AM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
I’m not American either. But I know a lot more than you are admitting to. If you really are that ignorant then it’s hard to see how you can honestly claim that Biden is as narcissistic as Trump, or dismiss the facts as mere opinion - and you don’t address either in your response either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by GDR, posted 07-21-2023 10:40 AM GDR has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 54 of 1173 (911645)
07-21-2023 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
07-21-2023 7:42 AM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
Any Ken Starr findings could only have ended in impeachment before Congress, not a trial before a judge, and so his investigation was considered political
Yeah, but originally Starr was looking for criminal activity with regard to Whitewater (some kind of land deal as I remember) and then spent 4 years going down numerous rabbit holes looking for something, anything to fuck over Clinton. If Clinton had told them to "Go fuck yourselves" instead of answering their questions about private, consensual sexual activity, he would have been fine, but instead he lied.
Starr did reveal some pretty sleazy and dishonorable behavior by Clinton, but he has been a better human being since his time in the Whitehouse, at least he seems that way to me.
Sorry for dragging this discussion off topic.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 07-21-2023 7:42 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22695
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(5)
Message 55 of 1173 (911646)
07-21-2023 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by GDR
07-21-2023 10:40 AM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
GDR writes:
I am so fed up with the politics in both of our countries that is is hard to know who to put any trust in.
It's not a question of who to put your trust in but what. If you're looking for who to trust then you're going to end up like Phat, putting all your faith in whoever has the most convincing story or the best YouTube video.
What you must instead do is put your trust in facts. And when you have no facts or insufficient facts then the proper position is "I don't know."
Also remember that in an argument between someone telling the truth and someone lying, the right answer does not lie somewhere in the middle.
I look at Biden who is past his best before date and is mixed up in some questionable dealings with his son.
This is a great example of a topic where you should be looking for some facts. Or, since it's not your country but only the huge gorilla to the south so what's to worry about, you could ignore it, but in that case you shouldn't be forming opinions out of ignorance, either.
There is not as yet any evidence that Biden is mixed up in business dealings with his son, nor that Biden accepted bribes. There's an FBI document that Grassley just made public that reports unverified allegations from an informant that Zlochevsky (Burisma CEO) said that Biden accepted foreign bribes back in 2015 ("It costs 5 (million) to pay one Biden, and 5 (million) to another Biden"), but there's no way to know which Biden's he's referring to (Beau Biden was still alive in 2015), and other testimony from Lev Parnas that Zlochevsky said there were no bribes.
And then there's the drug addled behavior of Hunter Biden. Here's a 2017 text from Hunter Biden demanding a $5 million bribe and claiming that his father was sitting right next to him:
Hunter Biden:
I am sitting here with my father and we would like to understand why the commitment made has not been fulfilled. Tell the director that I would like to resolve this now before it gets out of hand, and now means tonight.
And, Z, if I get a call or text from anyone involved in this other than you, Zhang, or the chairman, I will make certain that between the man sitting next to me and every person he knows and my ability to forever hold a grudge that you will regret not following my direction. I am sitting here waiting for the call with my father.
Joe Biden denies being in the room or having anything to do with his son's business dealings, and one of the complaints of the IRS whistleblowers is that prosecutors thought it doubtful that Joe Biden was actually in the room.
But as we all now know, Hunter Biden was in the throes of a crack addiction in 2017, and in the years prior to that, also. It very much looks like a drug addict using his father's name as leverage to extract money from foreign sources. If some feel there's enough smoke to be worthy of an investigation then that's fine, and the Comer committee is doing that, but after months of work they've still released no evidence.
We know that Hunter Biden is a train wreck, but if his father was actually involved there is not as yet any evidence. It looks to me like Hunter Biden would throw out his father's name whenever he needed leverage for extracting money. Given that he did receive foreign bribes it is evident that his victims believed him and so would say to people that they had paid bribes to Joe Biden. But the communication was by text and the payments were by wire. The victims didn't even see Hunter Biden in person, let alone Joe Biden.
Where did Joe Biden's money come from? Like many politicians, he's made a lot of money off book deals and speaking engagements. He's made his tax returns public, and in 2017 and 2018 he and his wife earned $15 million total.
So you can believe that Biden is mixed up in his son's mess in some way, but there is as yet no evidence of that, and the source of his money is documented - it didn't suddenly appear.
I get my news from the internet except for the small local paper.
Well that's scary. In a recent conversation with someone in his 20's he said he got his news off the Internet, and since I do, too, I just assumed that he meant news media websites. Then I learned it came from Facebook and WhatsApp. So is your news coming from sources that have long-established journalistic traditions, or from somewhere else?
If I look at Fox then Biden is the devil incarnate and if I look at CNN they say the same thing about Trump.
But what Fox is saying about Biden is all innuendo because there are literally no facts out there yet. Maybe someday there will be, the Republicans certainly hope so, but so far they have to rely on innuendo and hope that listeners believe it's actually true.
And what CNN is saying about Trump is all true. It's not necessary to make up anything or cast aspersions and innuendo that have no support. Trump *has* been indicted for mishandling classified documents. Trump *has* been indicted for illegal business practices. Trump *is* under investigation for causing an insurrection and interfering with Congress in their execution of their duty to count the votes of the electoral college. Trump *is* under investigation in Georgia for interfering with their election. Trump *is* under investigation in New York State for manipulating property valuations for his own benefit. Republicans in Michigan *have* been indicted for creating a false slate of electors to confound the counting of electoral college votes. Arizona may follow suit. There is so much bad that is true about Trump that there is no need to make anything up, indeed not even any time to do so given that there is so much that is real already going on.
I do see in both our countries though a vey divided population with virtually nobody much in the centre any more.
Our countries are divided because some politicians are telling lies because their base believes it and it gets them riled up and motivated to make campaign contributions and vote. But there are facts out there for those interested in understanding who is lying and who is not.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by GDR, posted 07-21-2023 10:40 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2023 1:52 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 57 by GDR, posted 07-21-2023 2:23 PM Percy has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 56 of 1173 (911647)
07-21-2023 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Percy
07-21-2023 1:24 PM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
quote:
What you must instead do is put your trust in facts. And when you have no facts or insufficient facts then the proper position is "I don't know."
GDR likes to say that the truth is important to him. Yet here he is ignorantly (he says) making claims he can’t support, getting evasive when challenged, and finally making (dubious) excuses.
(I don’t for a moment doubt that he knew that Trump was notoriously narcissistic - and had no reason to believe that Biden was the same.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Percy, posted 07-21-2023 1:24 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 57 of 1173 (911648)
07-21-2023 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Percy
07-21-2023 1:24 PM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
The New York Post had this headline in this story. Biden’s economic lies show he’s either a deluded narcissist or a total fraud
Sure that is a right leaning paper but are the facts correct?
Percy writes:
But what Fox is saying about Biden is all innuendo because there are literally no facts out there yet. Maybe someday there will be, the Republicans certainly hope so, but so far they have to rely on innuendo and hope that listeners believe it's actually true.

And what CNN is saying about Trump is all true. It's not necessary to make up anything or cast aspersions and innuendo that have no support. Trump *has* been indicted for mishandling classified documents. Trump *has* been indicted for illegal business practices. Trump *is* under investigation for causing an insurrection and interfering with Congress in their execution of their duty to count the votes of the electoral college. Trump *is* under investigation in Georgia for interfering with their election. Trump *is* under investigation in New York State for manipulating property valuations for his own benefit. Republicans in Michigan *have* been indicted for creating a false slate of electors to confound the counting of electoral college votes. Arizona may follow suit. There is so much bad that is true about Trump that there is no need to make anything up, indeed not even any time to do so given that there is so much that is real already going on.
There's the issue. You contend that the Fox reports are all innuendo and reject them. Other folks see that the CNN report is fake news and reject its reports.
I have no doubt that you are far more informed on the issues than I am but it ain't easy to sort out fake news from the truth. As I said earlier, both our countries are unbelievably divided. Politics is simply a power game to see who can win, and carries a very thin veneer of the importance of policy that really is for the good on the nation.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Percy, posted 07-21-2023 1:24 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by AZPaul3, posted 07-21-2023 3:55 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2023 4:40 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 60 by AZPaul3, posted 07-21-2023 5:09 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 62 by dwise1, posted 07-21-2023 7:38 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 07-22-2023 7:25 AM GDR has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8613
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 58 of 1173 (911650)
07-21-2023 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by GDR
07-21-2023 2:23 PM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
I am surprised someone with your experience and education is oblivious to the difference between innuendo and fact.
What part of "Biden must have been involved", without any evidence to show this, could possibly compete with "Trump has been indicted of criminal activity ... multiple times"?
How can you see a moral equivalence? I mean at the most basic human level, can you compare the morality of Biden with that of Trump?
Also, Ol'Joe has been in the national and international fishbowl for decades. Even in Canada, you must have heard some of the allegations and mud slung his way, some with justification, most butt-hurt political. If such allegations were true we would know after 20 years of intensive investigation.
Look what we know about Trump's crimes so soon after they were committed. How did Joe escape the law with all the evil bribes and drug and pedo things he's said to have done?
Trump got caught. Are the reptilians shielding Joe to lead their new world order?
Or, GDR, are you becoming a Trumpette?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by GDR, posted 07-21-2023 2:23 PM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 59 of 1173 (911651)
07-21-2023 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by GDR
07-21-2023 2:23 PM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
quote:
Sure that is a right leaning paper but are the facts correct?
Even if the facts were correct that wouldn’t justify the hyperbole of the article. And I note that you haven’t bothered to check the facts yourself.
And it’s obvious that the allegations do not indicate that Biden is anything like as narcissistic as Trump. So - for the question at hand - even this article is evidence against your claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by GDR, posted 07-21-2023 2:23 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8613
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 60 of 1173 (911652)
07-21-2023 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by GDR
07-21-2023 2:23 PM


Re: A Clarification on the Trump Rape of Jean Carroll
The New York Post had this headline in this story.
Yes, yes, William Randolph Hearst and American yellow journalism are alive and well strutting deep and proud into public discourse. But, GDR, you're not supposed to fall for this crap anymore. These days it is intended for those with limited critical thinking skills, the guns-and-liberty crowd. You know ... morons.
That's not supposed to be you. Ok you're a religion nut but you have some good synaptic connections that give you, as I perceive, a solid humanist bent.
You are not allowed to think or say anything not strictly, blisteringly, critical of that orange seditionist. You are not candle2 or Porkncheese. You have a thinking brain. You cannot abandon humanity to Trump. Please?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by GDR, posted 07-21-2023 2:23 PM GDR has not replied

  
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