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Author Topic:   2024 US Presidential Election
Morbus O'Somebody
Junior Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 07-29-2023


Message 151 of 1176 (911893)
07-31-2023 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by marc9000
07-30-2023 5:46 PM


Re: The Ten Worst States for Quality of Life
marc9000 writes:
Conservatism and atheism just don't seem to go together.
From where I'm sitting they do. Your average antitheist keyboard warrior is a pretty conventional libertarian science bro. He looks at matters like free speech from his my-rights ivory tower and not according to any analysis of power dynamics. He'll spend a lot of time arguing about things like abortion or the burqa, but just to score anti-religion (and anti-Muslim) debater points and not because of any discernible commitment to women's empowerment. In fact, the misogyny of folks like Dawkins and Hitchens is just fine by him. He touts science as an unproblematic ideal, has no time for feminist or postcolonialist critiques of science, and handwaves away any uncomfortable truths he's presented about how science is in hock to corporate and military interests.
Sounds pretty conservative to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by marc9000, posted 07-30-2023 5:46 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Theodoric, posted 07-31-2023 11:55 AM Morbus O'Somebody has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 152 of 1176 (911894)
07-31-2023 11:14 AM


I wonder where this dross comes from and why? Who is it that makes this drivel up? Why do it? Does it actually originate in the USA or is it your foreign enemies planting it and watching it grow naturally?
50 years ago it would have been impossible for anyone as publicly corrupt, dishonest and perverted as Trump to get elected, now it seems to be a requirement.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9366
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 153 of 1176 (911895)
07-31-2023 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Morbus O'Somebody
07-31-2023 10:37 AM


Re: The Ten Worst States for Quality of Life
Dawkins and Hitchens are not revered by atheists or antitheists.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Morbus O'Somebody, posted 07-31-2023 10:37 AM Morbus O'Somebody has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Morbus O'Somebody, posted 07-31-2023 12:17 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Morbus O'Somebody
Junior Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 07-29-2023


Message 154 of 1176 (911896)
07-31-2023 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Theodoric
07-31-2023 11:55 AM


Re: The Ten Worst States for Quality of Life
Theodoric writes:
Dawkins and Hitchens are not revered by atheists or antitheists.
I never said they were revered. However, since your signature has a Hitch quote first and foremost (and because I see people in debate groups say religion poisons everything with no apparent irony and characterize religion as a delusion on a pretty regular basis), it's fair to say rank and file antitheists still consider them both relevant and authoritative sources of analysis concerning religion and knowledge, despite their not-at-all-progressive views on everything from feminism and the Iraq War to Muslims and transpeople.
All I was really trying to say is that mainstream online atheists/antitheists seem generally conservative to me, contrary to what marc9000 claimed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Theodoric, posted 07-31-2023 11:55 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Tangle, posted 07-31-2023 12:32 PM Morbus O'Somebody has replied
 Message 158 by AZPaul3, posted 07-31-2023 5:25 PM Morbus O'Somebody has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9539
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 155 of 1176 (911897)
07-31-2023 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Morbus O'Somebody
07-31-2023 12:17 PM


Re: The Ten Worst States for Quality of Life
I know it's tedious but instead of just making shit up, you could always look it up…
Atheism in the United States - Wikipedia
Or is that just too scientific?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Morbus O'Somebody, posted 07-31-2023 12:17 PM Morbus O'Somebody has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Morbus O'Somebody, posted 07-31-2023 2:05 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Morbus O'Somebody
Junior Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 07-29-2023


Message 156 of 1176 (911898)
07-31-2023 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Tangle
07-31-2023 12:32 PM


Re: The Ten Worst States for Quality of Life
Tangle writes:
instead of just making shit up
At least I explained the reasoning behind the point I was making. Instead of just accusing me of lying, you could always explain why you disagree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Tangle, posted 07-31-2023 12:32 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22697
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(6)
Message 157 of 1176 (911899)
07-31-2023 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by marc9000
07-30-2023 4:22 PM


Re: The January 6th Riot at the Capitol was an Insurrection
marc9000 writes:
So you're arguing that on their way to the mayor's house, the protestors would have just silently walked by and not entered the property, but they decided to when they saw 2 white people with guns?
I said peacefully, not silently. Why do you think they would have targeted the McCloskey's house when they didn't target anyone else's house along the entire route? Of all the residents of all the other houses along the route, only the McCloskeys stood in front of their house with guns while yelling "private property" and "get out". Some protestors yelled back. I could find no photos showing protesters anywhere but in the street and on the sidewalk, but if such images exist maybe you can find them. The St. Louis Dispatch is behind a paywall.
And if I could add one note of interest, the McCloskey's are personal injury lawyers, i.e., ambulance chasers. You said this earlier:
marc9000 in Message 85 writes:
I don't consider most ambulance chasing lawyers to be productive.
Why are you defending people you don't even consider productive members of society?
Moving on:
That the white people saw them silently walking by, and got their guns and confronted them while they were out in the street?
Again, I said peacefully, not silently. I presume the protestors were talking with each other. Within 20 seconds of when the protestors first entered the gate the McCloskey's were already outside with their guns. A video shows someone holding the door open for the first protestors to enter and the door was intact at that time.
I've heard that was a gated street, open only to residents,...
Yes, of course it's a gated community. In Message 101 you even cited the Wikipedia article that describes it as a "private gated neighborhood" (St. Louis gun-toting incident - Wikipedia). Don't you even read your own references? Here's an image of where the protesters entered Portland Place, though I don't know which of the two gates they used:
...they had to go through gates marked against trespassing,...
There are no visible signs about trespassing on the gates, but there could easily be such signs somewhere in the vicinity.
...and that street wasn't on the way to the mayor's house.
The mayor's house was about a block away.
The protestors had no business on it, were loud and threatening to any white person they saw.
This isn't in any news reports I saw. The only verbal exchanges mentioned were between the protestors and the McCloskeys.
Maybe we'll find out more, but if it's not favorable to the marchers, the mainstream media will cover it up and you'll never know.
How convenient for you. If evidence is uncovered about protestor misbehavior you win, and if no evidence is uncovered you also win because that means it was covered up. What makes you so sure that evidence you can't find actually exists. You seem to believe a great many things for which no evidence exists because the mainstream media is covering it up, but somehow you know about it anyway.
Trump has an abrasive personality that a lot of people don't like,...
Actually to me Trump seems especially cordial, gregarious and ingratiating. What I don't like is the lying, cheating, racism, misogyny, and lack of respect for our democratic processes and institutions.
The Democrats countered jhis 2015 and 2016 campaign with childlike ridicule and mocking. He didn't create outrageous news, the mainstream media and late-night clowns created it to cover their intense embarrassment.
Trump seemed to command the news cycle during the 2015-2016 campaign period with a continuous flow of outrageous statements. A small sample:
  • "Mexico...is not sending their best. They're sending people that have lots of problems...They're bring drugs. They're bringins crime. They're rapists."
  • "You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."
  • "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?"
  • "There has to be some form of punishment" for women who get abortions.
  • If Hilliary is elected president, women will be able to "take the baby and rip the baby out of the womb in the ninth month on the final day" of their pregnancies
No, it is most certainly you. You're equating a violent attempted insurrection against the U.S. government with largely peaceful protests that took place across 140 cities against a racist murder by police.
SO YOU APPROVE OF THE BURNING, LOOTING AND KILLING DURING THOSE RIOTS??
Now you're just making stuff up. I'm on record as stating that those engaged in such activities should be held accountable.
See how ridiculous that all caps statement is?
Yes, I agree that your all caps statement is ridiculous. Why did you say it?
Exactly like you claiming that I approve of slavery just because I accept the obvious fact that some slaves learned useful skills as slaves. Exactly the same.
I think you have a problem drawing accurate analogs, and there you go defending slavery again. In addition to echoing DeSantis on the useful life skills slavery brought them, you also said this in Message 123:
marc9000 in Message 123 writes:
It's not Florida's version, it's basic history. Do ya think slaves might have learned the English language, that served them well after they were set free? How in this world anyone would think that slavery in the U.S. was NOTHING but whips and chains and completely unskilled labor is shocking to me, but with today's teachers unions I guess anything's possible.
Moving on:
For something to be an "attempted insurrection" against the U.S. government, it would have to a lot more than just a few dozen rioters.
I don't know where your figure of a "few dozen rioters" comes from. Maybe from Republican Representative Andrew Clyde who described it as looking like a "normal tourist visit."
More than a thousand people faced January 6 Capitol riot charges. More than 480 have received sentences so far.
In the courtroom the charge of insurrection is actually known as seditious conspiracy, and a number of January 6th protestors have been found guilty of seditious conspiracy because they attempted to overturn the results of the 2020 election, in many cases involving violence.
You act like all Republicans are at fault for it.
I hold Trump responsible for inciting the insurrectionist acts, and I hold a large segment of the Republican party responsible as enablers, a role they continue to play to this day as they go along with Trump's claim of a stolen 2020 election, something a large segment of Republicans still believe.
It was microscopic compared to the 2020 riots.
According to multiple sources, over 90% of the the 140 BLM protests in 2020 were peaceful. In contrast, there was only one January 6th insurrection and it was violent.
Axios is lumping largely peaceful protests across 140 cities over two weeks together as a single incident, which makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense, they were a response to the death of one black man. An insurrection against ALL police.
No other nationwide protests against murdered black people were all lumped together into a single incident. Not the protests after the Eric Garner murder, not the protests after the Freddie Gray murder, not the protests after the Antwon Rose murder, not the protests after the Trayvon Martin murder. Why does it make sense to you to lump all the protests together that were against the George Floyd murder?
An even better question is why we're not doing more to prevent the police murders of black people, who are murdered by police at a rate far beyond their proportion of the population.
It doesn't, riots in 140 cities were an actual insurrection.
If you want to try to make the case that the BLM protest marches were an insurrection then be my guest, but you'll have to do much better than just making a baseless claim. You might also try looking up the definition of insurrection.
A few hours, by no more than a few hundred nut cases in one place, is not an insurrection against the entire U.S. government.
You can make it sound as innocuous as you like by leaving out the particulars, but the legal system is having no trouble finding many participants guilty of various charges, and some of the participants are being found guilty of charges as serious as seditious conspiracy. It's not numbers that define seditious conspiracy but actions.
So that's $2.7 billion in damage and other costs at a single place, the capitol building, on a single day. By contrast, the $1 billion in BLM costs across 140 cities amounts to $7 million per city, but it was over two weeks, so that's a half million per day per city. $2.7 billion in one day is 5000 times greater.
And you really believe that? $2.7 billion for a few hours on January 6th? I'd like to see an itemization of that bill!
You ignored my previous paragraph where the questions you're asking were already answered:
Percy in Message 132 writes:
Also, estimates of damages due to the capitol insurrection have changed. Property damage to the capitol building is now estimated at around $2.7 million, and the GAO puts the total cost of the January 6th insurrection at $2.7 billion, see Cost of January 6 Capitol riot at $2.7 billion, GAO estimates:
quote:
This amount includes damage to the Capitol building and grounds, costs borne by the Capitol Police, the District of Columbia, and federal agencies, and estimated costs to address security needs and investigations.
See, all you had to do was read and you'd have found that the answers to your questions were already there.
And you think the BLM protests and violence weren't planned out for weeks?
I assume there was planning, but for protesting, not for insurrection.
The January 6th violent protest was an attempted insurrection intent on stopping the count of the electoral votes to keep Donald Trump in office. The BLM protests were against a police murder of a black person, had nothing to do with the political transition from one administration to the next, and were largely peaceful.
They were an insurrection against the entire police establishment of the U.S.
Largely peaceful protests against police treatment of blacks is not insurrection. Even a full scale assault on a police department building would not be insurrection. You really should look the word up.
Most people who showed up at the capitol on January 6th didn't do any damage. The organizers of the BLM riots didn't include "peacefully and patriotically" in their preparations, like Trump did on January 6th. Democrats claim the 2020 insurrection against the entire police force of the U.S. was "mostly peaceful", and that is believable to those who watched the mainstream media cover-up of the violence and destruction. Fox News viewers saw the destruction.
You can argue all you like, but the January 6th attack on on the Capitol will go down in history as an attempted violent insurrection, while the BLM protests against the George Floyd murder will go down as largely peaceful.
It's your constant complaint that the mainstream media is covering up things that you claim happened but that there is no evidence of. If Fox News has videos and images and if their reporters are witnesses of the destruction wrought by the BLM protestors then it can be used to prosecute the perpetrators. I'm sure all of us are in favor of the rule of law and holding people accountable for their actions, but only if evidence exists of those actions and not because white people feel safe and entitled to make baseless accusations against black people.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by marc9000, posted 07-30-2023 4:22 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8613
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 158 of 1176 (911901)
07-31-2023 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Morbus O'Somebody
07-31-2023 12:17 PM


Re: The Ten Worst States for Quality of Life
I see people in debate groups say religion poisons everything with no apparent irony and characterize religion as a delusion on a pretty regular basis
Do you know why someone would, heaven forbid, say something like this? If satan allowed such a thing, what reasoning could a person possibly have for such a view?
it's fair to say rank and file antitheists still consider them both relevant and authoritative sources of analysis concerning religion and knowledge, despite their not-at-all-progressive views on everything from feminism and the Iraq War to Muslims and transpeople.
Atheists don't come in rank and file the way religion requires. But, yes the two exalted heros you mentioned are forever deified in schools of thought and forums of thought. Just like the Apocalypse of John we do love our horsemen.
By progressive are you meaning woke? What is enlightening from each is the knowledge that their "not-at-all-progressive views" are not an issue since compared to any religionist, both are exceptionally progressive. Besides, atheism does not come with a required religious creed. The politics are open.
Besides, just like anyone's, their views have no claim on my mind. I happen to agree with and disagree with a lot of what they say. Not so much agree on anything the religious set thinks, feels, rubs in their contemplated navels.
So, do you know of any reason why religion would be looked on as fantasy, its practice called poison and its bloody history labeled as evil?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Morbus O'Somebody, posted 07-31-2023 12:17 PM Morbus O'Somebody has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Morbus O'Somebody, posted 07-31-2023 9:46 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 1176 (911902)
07-31-2023 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by DrJones*
07-30-2023 12:50 AM


Re: A history lesson
DrJones* in Message 143 writes:
Tanypteryx in Message 138 writes:
I just hope he's sending Trump all his money!
but trump is a billionaire, why does he need other's people money? unless.......
Oh, the Turd doesn't need it. I just love that he's making even bigger fools of his followers than just getting their vote, he's conning them into giving their savings to him.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by DrJones*, posted 07-30-2023 12:50 AM DrJones* has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22697
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 160 of 1176 (911903)
07-31-2023 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by marc9000
07-30-2023 5:19 PM


Re: A history lesson
marc9000 writes:
You're not responding to anything I said. You said that productivity and morality go hand in hand and provided Adams as a supporting reference. But looking at your Adams quote more closely now, he didn't mention anything even remotely related to productivity. It was all about morality and virtue.
And the survival of a nation, which is related to productivity.
Adams not only doesn't mention productivity, he doesn't mention the survival of a nation, either. His concern is that American society remain free. When you cited Adams in support of your claim that morality and productivity go hand and hand you were just making it up, plus you already agreed that immorality leads to higher productivity than morality.
So your idea that productivity and morality go hand in hand is not supported by Adams. Obviously productivity can be increased much more easily if one ignores the morality and virtue that Adams was actually writing about, and later on in your message you come back to this topic and agree.
I can't handle that one, you and I are as different as AOC and MTG.
So in this analogy, I'm AOC and you're MTG? Do I have that right? If so, I'm flattered, and I hope you're ashamed.
Unbelievably, you're apparently about to embark upon a defense of slavery:
Like you defend the 2020 riots?
But you know this isn't true. I've said several times now that I believe people should be held accountable for their actions. I've said it about Biden, and I've said it about the BLM protests against the George Floyd murder. Are you trying to get me to call you a liar so that you can take the discussion down to the level of, as I expressed suspicions earlier, an argument between two drunks?
It's become harder and harder to cleve to the belief that you have any interest in facts. You seem to have an overabundance of accusations and a dearth of evidence. You're long on claims and short on data.
Africa was a miserable place 200, 300 years ago. The world has developed in amazingly different ways at different times according to geography. Most of Europe was more advanced 1000 years ago than Africa was 200, 100 years ago, or even today in some places like Sudan. The U.S. was settled 200+ years ago by Europeans who were infinitely more advanced than Africans. And slaves were people, they picked up on it fast.
You're arguing in favor a slavery again. You're saying that it's okay to enslave people who are less technologically sophisticated.
So if you don't use whips or chains then slavery is okay? Or if you let them apprentice in the kitchen or the stables then slavery is okay?
So if the 2020 riots were mostly peaceful, then the destruction and killings were okay?
Over 90% of the 2020 BLM protests against the murder of George Floyd were peaceful. Why do you keep calling them "the 2020 riots?"
If slaves learned any kind of skill that they wouldn't have learned in a miserable, poverty laden continent like Africa, that fact has nothing to do with how "okay" it was.
You're still defending slavery.
But he makes a peculiar claim, that many believe slavery was unique to America, that slaveholding was unique to whites, and that slavery is a thing of the past. I've never heard these claims myself, and they're pretty obviously wrong. It's a legitimate complaint to the extent that it's true, but no one here is making these claims.
When political activists like Kamala Harris make emotional speeches against Florida's school curriculum, all she or anyone listening to her thinks about is the past slavery in the U.S. - that's ALL she's referring to. The reason she, and others on the left get emotional about the claim of what skills slaves might have learned, it harms the political movement of "reparations".
I doubt anyone here has any idea what you're on about. The Florida black educational standards are an attempt to whitewash the history of slavery. Many people, not just Kamala Harris, are calling attention to this fact, including black Republican congressmen Byron Donalds (FL), John James (MI), Wesley Hunt (TX) and Tim Scott (SC).
I don't see the slavery going on in....Sudan for example, making the news on a regular basis.
If you're not seeing such news on a regular basis then maybe you need to broaden your news sources. And human trafficking is a form of slavery that is not an uncommon news topic.
These stories just popped up in the last week:
The point is, right now it's about Florida's education curriculum and nothing else. About today's blacks that were never slaves, and white people today who were never slaveowners. Reparations!
We weren't discussing reparations. Do you now understand that Sowell does not agree with you that slavery was ever a benefit to blacks and that there is no justification for slavery?
marc9000 writes:
He doesn't say or imply that slavery was good, and neither do I.

Sure you do. Just above you argued it taught them English and gave them trades and made them better off than had they remained in Africa. Your position doesn't parallel Sowell's at all.
Because I didn't c/p every word of his book?
If you think Sowell agrees with you that slavery is a good thing then just quote the parts of his book that say so.
Your position argues that the 2020 riots were peaceful, so they were good.
That's not my position at all. I was pointing out your error in claiming that the 2020 BLM demonstrations against the murder of George Floyd were comparable to the January 6th insurrection.
marc9000 writes:
It's beyond arrogant for liberals today to judge people of past generations for slavery of that time.

I wouldn't express it this way, but I largely agree and have expressed similar thoughts. But no one's arguing that in this thread. Why are you bringing this up?
Kamala Harris argues it, her anger makes it crystal clear, and no one in this thread takes exception to it. Reparations!
Kamala Harris doesn't have a specific position on reparations beyond saying that she supports studying it, and she believes that the psychological impact deserves consideration, too. Personally I think reparations are a bad idea because the total owed would be continually increasing due to continuing discrimination.
Kamala Harris's appeal was to "teach our full history, even when it is painful." Accuracy, honesty, and a complete historical account seem like good ideas.
Some history is best forgotten. What good does harping on slavery do, other than cause division?
Interesting position on history.
Why do you think anyone in the Biden administration is promoting black supremacy? The mainstream liberal belief is that there is no substantive difference between races.
Reparations! Better leniency towards black criminals.
You're not giving serious answers. No presidential candidate is calling for reparations or for more leniency toward black criminals. It would be big news if any were. I don't think we could have missed it.
Ah, back to normal already. No, not communism, of course not. Why would you even suggest that?
Why would you complain about free markets if you have no ideas for something better?
No one here has complained about free markets. I think you must be having a conversation in your head that no one else is privy to.
Countless other alternatives have been tried throughout history, always involving bigger government, and they fail comparatively every time. Lots of people are moving to Texas from California, and many seem to think if they try the same things that have messed up California, it will turn out differently. It won't.
Once again, I don't think anyone has any idea what you're on about.
Shouldn't different kinds of news be covered differently?
Politics gets involved when "kinds" are being defined.
You chopped off the part that puts this in context. You were comparing January 6th to a dispute between an employer and an employee because, you said, of the different ways they're covered in the mainstream media. If you don't believe they should be covered differently then you're going to have to explain why. I'm sure they seem like very different kinds of news to almost everyone.
So now you're saying that lawyers who work for Trump *are* productive, but lawyers who are prosecutors are not because they're automatically corrupt?
Sometimes two wrongs DO make a right!
Do even you know what you mean by this? And do you actually believe prosecutors are corrupt?
The question for you and Mr. Adams is who gets to be the arbiter for what is moral and what is not.
Tradition and human-nature history mean a lot. Your claim that morality and virtue hinder productivity are pretty scary to a lot of people.
You're mischaracterizing the conversation. You claimed that morality and productivity go hand in hand, and I pointed out that they don't because productivity can be increased more easily if one behaves unethically or immorally. You agreed with me.
I think this is the most chaotic post I've seen from you in a while. If what you believe is actually true then you should be able to find facts to support it instead of just casting baseless accusations around left and right.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by marc9000, posted 07-30-2023 5:19 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by marc9000, posted 08-01-2023 8:54 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Morbus O'Somebody
Junior Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 07-29-2023


Message 161 of 1176 (911904)
07-31-2023 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by AZPaul3
07-31-2023 5:25 PM


Re: The Ten Worst States for Quality of Life
AZPaul3 writes:
So, do you know of any reason why religion would be looked on as fantasy, its practice called poison and its bloody history labeled as evil?
Well, sure. It's because people without a nuanced grasp of history look at the phenomenon only through their agenda-colored glasses. It's because immature keyboard warriors have been given license by their celebrity spokesmockers to define religion in whatever way makes it seem like an inhumane delusion.
I'm not religious, incidentally. Per the thrust of this website, I agree that creationism is a crock. But the very idea that religion itself is just a conspiracy theory that simply needs to be fact-checked and debunked is such a puerile approach to the vast and problematic construct of religion that people have every reason to dismiss it as something you believe because it tells you what you want to hear, and something you can't be reasoned out of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by AZPaul3, posted 07-31-2023 5:25 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by AZPaul3, posted 08-01-2023 3:32 AM Morbus O'Somebody has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22697
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 162 of 1176 (911905)
07-31-2023 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by marc9000
07-30-2023 5:46 PM


Re: The Ten Worst States for Quality of Life
marc9000 writes:
This discussion board has an edit feature. If you're going to lie or make things up could I suggest going back and editing your messages first?
The only reason I ever edit is to add something or correct a mistake. I'm not going to edit because someone else doesn't agree with something I say.
I was being facetious. I was just pointing out the inanity of claiming you said something you didn't when your posts are just sitting there for anyone to read. That makes you like the kid with his mouth full of cookies denying that he'd been at the cookie jar.
I assumed you meant "most watched news program," not "most watched program."
No, some of their ads make it clear, "most watched program" not just most watched news program. I watch it, you don't.
I did some more digging. ABC World News Tonight is the #1 evening news program in its time slot. If you open up the rankings to include news programs in other time slots then programs on Fox News have the top five spots.
And that's your first mention of the word "combined."
Yes, you said "Fox News is watched by more people than any other television news" "Any" other television news obviously refers to ALL other television news. It's a clever way to play with words. Some will see it, others won't.
You're problem is with plain English. "Any other" and "all other" are not synonyms. The top rated news network, Fox News until earlier this year, has more viewers than any other news network. It does not have more viewers than all other news networks. This shouldn't have to be explained.
I've been on this forum on and off for about 14 years now, and the hatred of my generally common conservative views...
Your views aren't just conservative, they're positively medieval. You're defending slavery, for God's sake. It's incredible that you don't realize how extreme your views are.
But it isn't your views that cause negative reactions. It's the dishonest way you defend them and attack others. In just your last few posts alone you repeatedly misrepresented facts and views, and you rarely provide evidence for the wild claims you make. It's what you do.
...it's simply human nature to not like to hear opposing views.
Since you're human, you might want to consider some self reflection and try applying this to yourself.
Many leaders of foreign nations impose serious penalties for speaking freely, and it's creeping into U.S. society despite the first amendment, with the recent censorship that goes on in the big tech companies against Republicans, and the censorship of Republican speakers on college campuses that goes back decades.
The first amendment promises that you can say what you want within the reasonable limits I've described in earlier posts, but it doesn't guarantee you a platform from which to speak. I'm against censorship, but I'm also against lies and misrepresentations and incitements to insurrection. I think platforms like Twitter and Facebook are constantly presented difficult choices.
Trump as a sitting president was censored by Twitter, and one political party and its followers celebrated that. Only a few decades ago, there would have been an immense public outcry if that would have happened. Not any more.
If one considers access to platforms like Twitter a privilege rather than a right, then I think most would agree that Trump abused that privilege.
And I can just about guarantee that you've had more than one regular here PM you to ban me.
I wouldn't put money on it if I were you.
Conservatism and atheism just don't seem to go together.
Are you confusing this with a conversation with someone else? I have no idea what you're on about.
From the time stamps, I see you spend most of a day sometimes, responding to a previous days messages of mine. I wish I had that kind of time, maybe someday soon I'll get a physical setback and have to retire.
Retirement's great, you'll love it.
But it's a pretty good guess of mine that you have to take the time you take for responses to me to maintain the EvC base that you need to keep posting here.
What base? There's not enough people left to call them a base. EvC's had a good run, it'll be 23 this New Year's, it's lasted longer than most websites, but it's dying and its days are numbered.
I'll leave you alone soon, I know you always have to have the last word.
It's more that I can't let error go by without comment. As I say to my wife, "I'll be up in a minute, someone's wrong on the Internet."
There's 4 hours of my day shot, but it's fun in a weird way. I can always use the typing practice. Have a wonderful week!
Thanks. I'm here for the fun and for the feeling you get when you say something well and true.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by marc9000, posted 07-30-2023 5:46 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8613
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 163 of 1176 (911908)
08-01-2023 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Morbus O'Somebody
07-31-2023 9:46 PM


A Catholic Conspiracy
Religion requires adherents to suspend critical thinking and accept fantasy, supernatural falsehoods, as the basis of their beliefs. Religion requires adherents to act on those falsehoods often to the detriment of inhumanity.
As Joseph Campbell and colleagues allege, religion was born to explain and compensate for the sting of a loved one’s death. It wasn’t long before the influence of a shaman was the guide to the clan and it wasn’t long after that the shaman’s influence was usurped, used and controlled by the tribal chieftain. In the millennia since that became the local warlord, the king, the Czar. Religion has been used as a tool of control and violence for forever.
AZPaul3 writes:
So, do you know of any reason why religion would be looked on as fantasy, its practice called poison and its bloody history labeled as evil?
Morbus O'Somebody replies:
It's because people without a nuanced grasp of history look at the phenomenon only through their agenda-colored glasses. It's because immature keyboard warriors have been given license by their celebrity spokesmockers to define religion in whatever way makes it seem like an inhumane delusion.
When the spokesmockers and the agenda-colored glasses are analyzed in the glaring light of reality and shown to be the way of this universe the priests and their apologists have to “nuance” the history to fit it to their catechism.
Religion defined itself by its own actions. A clear, non-apologist view, can see the war, the blood. We already know religion caused, aided and abetted evil in humanity. But that is history. The problem is the blood shed for false (supernatural) reasons continues to this day. What the Christians are doing in the African HIV pandemic, what the Muslims are doing to girls’ sex and education, violence Sikh-Hindu clashes in Punjab, the Israel/Palestine wars, the levant conflicts, centuries of strife throughout the middle east, are all religious wars. There are religious and religiously-dominated ethnic war zones all over the planet.
Religion has poisoned the course of human history most dramatically by starting, winning and losing the war lords battles. The priest’s utility to the war lord for justification and forced conscription is well documented. There hasn’t been a war, modern or ancient, that did not have God’s blessing.
… define religion in whatever way makes it seem like an inhumane delusion.
Like Islam in microcosm, religion as a whole is an intellectual poison requiring suspension of critical thought in favor of supernatural fantasy. That is the delusion part.
Religious fantasy has too easily been manipulated and too easily made dogmatic and violent. The flow of blood from those acting on those fantasies is ignored by the apologists propagating the spilling of even more blood. That is the inhumane part.
Turns out it is very easy and accurate to define religion as an inhumane delusion.
But the very idea that religion itself is just a conspiracy theory that simply needs to be fact-checked and debunked is such a puerile approach to the vast and problematic construct of religion that people have every reason to dismiss it as something you believe because it tells you what you want to hear, and something you can't be reasoned out of.
A conspiracy theory? No theory about it. Can you not describe the catholic church as a conspiracy to spread its influence and achieve as much $$$, land, political power as possible? Are the Mormons in Utah any different? The Missouri Baptist Synod - Reformed? And each stands ready to fight you if you piss off their fantasy.
Religious creed does not require any fact-checking or debunking. We know religions, all of them – every one, are false. Already debunked. The religionists did this to themselves when they insisted on the supernatural. Like you cannot patent a perpetual motion machine because the clerk knows the reality of the universe prevents such a thing, you can’t have supernatural because the reality of the universe precludes that as well. It’s not allowed.
So religion is false, we know it is false. We know modern religion stems from an excessively violent history and that the modern practice of religion is killing people by both creed and deed today. The practice of violent religious creeds by new generations is the flow of religious poison deeper into the human future. We know the supernatural is an illogical concept that only exists in fantasy and that religious fantasy is used to justify evil.
So, that is the reason why religion would be looked on as fantasy, its practice called poison and its bloody history labeled as evil. These are all demonstrably true.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Morbus O'Somebody, posted 07-31-2023 9:46 PM Morbus O'Somebody has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Percy, posted 08-01-2023 7:09 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 171 by Morbus O'Somebody, posted 08-02-2023 9:58 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22697
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 164 of 1176 (911909)
08-01-2023 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by AZPaul3
08-01-2023 3:32 AM


Re: A Catholic Conspiracy
AZPaul3 writes:
Religion has poisoned the course of human history most dramatically by starting, winning and losing the war lords battles. The priest’s utility to the war lord for justification and forced conscription is well documented. There hasn’t been a war, modern or ancient, that did not have God’s blessing.
Father Mulcahy of M.A.S.H. is the familiar example. Governments wants their soldiers to believe that God is going to war right alongside them.
A conspiracy theory? No theory about it. Can you not describe the catholic church as a conspiracy to spread its influence and achieve as much $$$, land, political power as possible? Are the Mormons in Utah any different? The Missouri Baptist Synod - Reformed? And each stands ready to fight you if you piss off their fantasy.
It was common for promising seminary graduates to be assigned a parish where, if enterprising, they could build up great wealth. The church was often one of the significant landholders in many jurisdictions at a time when land meant wealth.
Religious creed does not require any fact-checking or debunking. We know religions, all of them – every one, are false. Already debunked. The religionists did this to themselves when they insisted on the supernatural. Like you cannot patent a perpetual motion machine because the clerk knows the reality of the universe prevents such a thing, you can’t have supernatural because the reality of the universe precludes that as well. It’s not allowed.
And each invents its own supernatural world, contradictory to the rest.
We know the supernatural is an illogical concept that only exists in fantasy and that religious fantasy is used to justify evil.
The Palestinian response to the Jewish influx after WWII was evil, but evil begets evil, and now Israel is raining evil down on the Palestinians as it becomes less a country with mostly Jewish citizens and more a country where the church is the state.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by AZPaul3, posted 08-01-2023 3:32 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by AZPaul3, posted 08-01-2023 12:42 PM Percy has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8613
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 165 of 1176 (911913)
08-01-2023 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Percy
08-01-2023 7:09 AM


Re: A Catholic Conspiracy
The Palestinian response to the Jewish influx after WWII was evil,
The initial evil was in acknowledging a 3000 year-old religious claim allowing the jews to take what they wanted by force. Palestine reaction to losing their lands, their homes, by force, continues today. Both sides continue to invoke religious claims and religious justifications for continued killing. The poison that is religion created, and now maintains, this evil.
Also, this is an excellent example of secular civil strife weaponized by religion.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Percy, posted 08-01-2023 7:09 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Percy, posted 08-01-2023 2:02 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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