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Author Topic:   2024 US Presidential Election
Percy
Member
Posts: 22945
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 1592 of 1639 (920659)
11-06-2024 5:28 PM


The End
Ann Telnaes, Washington Post
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1593 by AZPaul3, posted 11-06-2024 8:04 PM Percy has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8654
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 1593 of 1639 (920660)
11-06-2024 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1592 by Percy
11-06-2024 5:28 PM


Re: The End
:stunned:
:hurt:
:sad:

“There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion,”
-Daniel Dennett
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1592 by Percy, posted 11-06-2024 5:28 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1594 by Rahvin, posted 11-06-2024 10:47 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4067
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 1594 of 1639 (920661)
11-06-2024 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1593 by AZPaul3
11-06-2024 8:04 PM


Re: The End
40% of eligible voters did not vote.
Trump was elected by ~30% of the electorate, with slightly lower numbers than he got in 2020.
Harris received ~15-20 million fewer votes than Biden.
3rd-party candidates received less than 1% of the vote, not enough to sway anything anywhere.
This election was purely the result of people not showing up to vote.
Why did they not show up?
I have some ideas.

-->“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

-->Nihil supernum --> -->


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1593 by AZPaul3, posted 11-06-2024 8:04 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1595 by Parasomnium, posted 11-07-2024 1:20 AM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 1596 by dronestar, posted 11-07-2024 10:17 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2228
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 1595 of 1639 (920662)
11-07-2024 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1594 by Rahvin
11-06-2024 10:47 PM


Re: The End
The American people have not learned anything from history. When I was young, my parents' generation looked up to America, they saw it as a country that set the examples for the future. But those days are over. America is now just another banana republic with a convicted criminal waiting in the wings to rape the country. You saw and heard what kind of person Trump is, and what kind of people make up the Republican Party, and still you could not bring yourself to keep them from power. Every bad thing that Trump and his cronies are going to heap on their voters is well deserved. I pity the rest of you.
P.S.: If another pandemic breaks out in the next four years, and Trump remembers his brilliant advice about injecting bleach, don’t argue with him, just hand him a syringe and an ample supply of it and let him have at it.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1594 by Rahvin, posted 11-06-2024 10:47 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1461
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 1596 of 1639 (920666)
11-07-2024 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1594 by Rahvin
11-06-2024 10:47 PM


Re: The End
Hey Rahvin,
Rahvin writes:
Why did they not show up?
Many reasons. Feel free to add to my list, but here are six:
1. price gouging of groceries: Food availability is now a privilege. Like the media, far too many food manufacturers are owned by one entity, it is easy for them to price fix when there is little competition. Harris’ election promise of disbanding large monopolies should have been done two-three years ago by Biden.
2. price gouging of rent. Housing should be a right, but now it is a privilege. IMO, individual landlords and corporate landlords from other states and countries should be illegal. When they can easily and cheaply buy up entire neighborhoods, they exploit rent/housing availability/prices. Although inflation went up 4-10% these past years, rent went up 100% to 200% in my area. Biden never addressed this huge fail.
3. education failure. americans only know words like ‘freedom’, ‘fascist.’ ‘communist”, ’socialist’ in a cartoon sense. america is a willfully dumb, dumb, dumb society. Most americans get their news from social media from other willfully dumb, dumb, dumb americans. It’s amazing the american experiment lasted as long as it did. Read "Profiles in Ignorance: How America's Politicians Got Dumb and Dumber," by Andy Borowitz. I also so wish the schools fully taught the The Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted in 1948, . . . being exploited has become expected and normalized. The majority of americans now routinely vote (or not vote at all) against their best interests.
4. Palestinian woman and children being murdered with american bombs, and Biden and Harris being resolute with their ACTIONS that it will continue. Legislation known as the Leahy Law prevents the U.S. from providing weapons or funds for military assistance to groups when there is credible information indicating the groups have violated human rights. Biden/Harris, shamefully illegal and immoral.
5. Selective law enforcement, corrupt 'supreme' court 'justice.' If you are rich, you can delay justice forever. Could Biden have done anything less? Dejoy still postmaster. No consequences for Khashoggi murder. Continued support of do-nothing Merrick Garland. (They can arrest Jack Teixeira for stealing classiifed docs, but not the former president). No words of change from Harris. Why vote for this deplorable status quo?
6. Harris was a woman. Harris received 14 million fewer votes than Biden in 2020. Yeah, I do I think Harris being a woman was the biggest reason for americans not showing up. Blacks were granted the right to vote in 1860s. It took the even more suppressed woman to gain the right to vote in 1920. I think america could nearly allow a black man president, but not a woman.
These are some things that prevented an enthusiastic but critical Harris/Democracy vote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1594 by Rahvin, posted 11-06-2024 10:47 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1597 by Taq, posted 11-07-2024 10:49 AM dronestar has replied
 Message 1599 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-07-2024 4:52 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 1609 by Taq, posted 11-08-2024 5:44 PM dronestar has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 1597 of 1639 (920667)
11-07-2024 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1596 by dronestar
11-07-2024 10:17 AM


Re: The End
dronestar writes:
These are some things that prevented an enthusiastic but necessary Harris/Democracy vote.
From the few people I have talked to who don't vote, the reasons are a lot different.
1. They don't feel they know enough about politics to make an informed decision.
2. They don't think a switching politicians will change anything.
3. They are in the political minority within a state, so they already know their vote for president won't matter.
4. The effort isn't worth the reward, especially in cases where lines can be hours long.
5. Combined with #4, they are procrastinators so they don't plan ahead to use absentee ballots or early voting to avoid issues related to same day voting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1596 by dronestar, posted 11-07-2024 10:17 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1598 by dronestar, posted 11-07-2024 11:39 AM Taq has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1461
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 1598 of 1639 (920668)
11-07-2024 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1597 by Taq
11-07-2024 10:49 AM


Re: The End
Hmmm.
Seems like we can combine your list into one item: lazy/apathetic. But the generic reasons they gave can apply to every election.
To get more specific, since 2020, why have 14-17 million more voters become lazy/apathetic THIS time and not vote? What SPECIFICALLY did Biden and/or Harris do/not-do to make these ADDITIONAL non-voters less enthusiastic? Something has made them more lazy/apathetic, correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1597 by Taq, posted 11-07-2024 10:49 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1606 by Taq, posted 11-08-2024 12:03 PM dronestar has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3971
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 1599 of 1639 (920672)
11-07-2024 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1596 by dronestar
11-07-2024 10:17 AM


Re: The End
4. Palestinian woman and children being murdered with american bombs, and Biden and Harris being resolute with their ACTIONS that it will continue. Legislation known as the Leahy Law prevents the U.S. from providing weapons or funds for military assistance to groups when there is credible information indicating the groups have violated human rights. Biden/Harris, shamefully illegal and immoral.
I wonder if Biden/Harris were in a no-win situation here. Support Israel and the Palestinian supporter votes abstain from voting, or come down on Israel and loose a big chunk of the Israel supporter vote (which would go to Trump*).
Maybe if Biden had suppressed Israel's response soon after the war had started, things might have worked better, but its too late now (or is it???). Maybe loosing the election could free up Bidden to do something for the Palestinians.
Moose
* plan is from here on to be referred to as FA = Flaming Asshole
Better plan - after inauguration * POtuS Trump, or maybe POtuS

"IF YOU DON'T WANT POLITICS GETTING INTO CRIMINAL TRIALS, DON'T LET CRIMINALS GET INTO POLITICS" - Moose
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable." - John Kenneth Galbraith

It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. - Paul Krugman (as stolen from Chiroptera's signature)

"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes" - Ronald Reagan (1984)

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1596 by dronestar, posted 11-07-2024 10:17 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1607 by dronestar, posted 11-08-2024 3:31 PM Minnemooseus has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22945
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 1600 of 1639 (920673)
11-07-2024 4:58 PM


He Can't Even Win Gracefully
Donald Trump is charging election fraud in Philadelphia:
Truth Social:
A lot of talk about massive CHEATING in Philadelphia. Law Enforcement coming!!!
From Philadelphia DA: 'No factual basis whatsoever' for Trump fraud claims:
USA Today:
Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner said Tuesday that there is no evidence to back up Republican candidate Donald Trump’s claim of election fraud in Philadelphia."The only talk about massive cheating has come from one of the candidates, Donald J. Trump. There is no factual basis whatsoever within law enforcement to support this wild allegation. We have invited complaints and allegations of improprieties all day. If Donald J. Trump has any facts to support his wild allegations, we want them now. Right now. We are not holding our breath," Krasner said in a statement.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1601 by Phat, posted 11-07-2024 6:39 PM Percy has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18647
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 1601 of 1639 (920674)
11-07-2024 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1600 by Percy
11-07-2024 4:58 PM


Re: He Can't Even Win Gracefully
What the heck does the guy want? He won Pennsylvania and the electoral vote as well as the popular vote. Why is he bitching??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1600 by Percy, posted 11-07-2024 4:58 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1602 by Rahvin, posted 11-07-2024 8:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1603 by Zucadragon, posted 11-08-2024 3:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4067
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 10.0


(1)
Message 1602 of 1639 (920677)
11-07-2024 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1601 by Phat
11-07-2024 6:39 PM


Re: He Can't Even Win Gracefully
His entire schtick is grievance.
This is a major theme of fascism. He's going to assert persecution and invent enemies constantly. He'll identify groups that are enemies, including the press, LGBTQ folks, "leftists," and immigrants. "Degenerates" and drug users. It will spread more generally to minorities of all stripes - racial, religious, etc. "They're" all "criminals," you see. And "they're" out to get him, because he's trying to work for you!
There will *always* be grievances for Trump. Eventually fascists run out of enemies to blame and start attacking their own base, and then they self-destruct.
Don't be surprised by Trump doing exactly what Trump has done since riding down that escalator.

-->“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

-->Nihil supernum --> -->


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1601 by Phat, posted 11-07-2024 6:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 142
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006


Message 1603 of 1639 (920679)
11-08-2024 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1601 by Phat
11-07-2024 6:39 PM


Re: He Can't Even Win Gracefully
I recently watched the movie V for Vendetta again, which pretty much focuses on that kind of fascism, the constant pointing of fingers at perceived enemies and how eventually it backfires.
Great movie, a lot of fun, it'll give you a great idea of how close Trump is to fascism... Which is very close.
The core I find, is that unlike the professional victim who plays themselves to be helpless while pointing fingers and getting the benefit of the doubt and support in response. A fascist both has to be a victim, but also pretend to exude strength and confidence.
Keep supporting him, because he will fix this, he will get rid of the bad apples, he will fix the system for all GOOD people, like himself, etc etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1601 by Phat, posted 11-07-2024 6:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22945
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.9


(1)
Message 1604 of 1639 (920682)
11-08-2024 10:03 AM


Why Trump Won
Here's an interesting take on why Trump won: Why Did Trump Really Win? It’s Simple, Actually. – Mother Jones.
It argues that while the economy *is* doing well overall, a significant portion of the working population is struggling. They don't see a healthy economy. One party tells them, "Things are terrible, I can fix it," while the other party tells them, "Things are fine." Which party do you think they'll vote for, despite the threats to democracy, climate and world peace.
The irony of voting in the Republicans is that it's they, beginning with Reagan, that have taken and are continuing to take the country down the path of a diminished middle class and a more poor bottom fifth, greatly increasing wealth disparity. Trump might overturn the current system, and if you're in the bottom fifth you might figure you have nothing to lose, but the reality is that whatever system Trump erects will only benefit him and his buddies.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1605 by Taq, posted 11-08-2024 11:47 AM Percy has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.2


(1)
Message 1605 of 1639 (920684)
11-08-2024 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1604 by Percy
11-08-2024 10:03 AM


Re: Why Trump Won
Percy writes:
It argues that while the economy *is* doing well overall, a significant portion of the working population is struggling. They don't see a healthy economy. One party tells them, "Things are terrible, I can fix it," while the other party tells them, "Things are fine." Which party do you think they'll vote for, despite the threats to democracy, climate and world peace.
I think these are long term trends coming to a head. Wages have not kept up with inflation for decades now, and the recent and short spike in inflation has made it all the more obvious. In addition, there are segments of the economy that have increased in price well above inflationary rates such as child care, health care, secondary education, and housing. Even before the pandemic, we were seeing much higher levels of adult children living in their parents' home because they were overloaded with student loan debt and housing was out of reach. Pointing to growth in GDP does nothing to address these issues.
The irony of voting in the Republicans is that it's they, beginning with Reagan, that have taken and are continuing to take the country down the path of a diminished middle class and a more poor bottom fifth, greatly increasing wealth disparity. Trump might overturn the current system, and if you're in the bottom fifth you might figure you have nothing to lose, but the reality is that whatever system Trump erects will only benefit him and his buddies.
Hence the focus on illegal immigration, the perfect red herring.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1604 by Percy, posted 11-08-2024 10:03 AM Percy has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10299
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 1606 of 1639 (920685)
11-08-2024 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1598 by dronestar
11-07-2024 11:39 AM


Re: The End
dronestar writes:
To get more specific, since 2020, why have 14-17 million more voters become lazy/apathetic THIS time and not vote? What SPECIFICALLY did Biden and/or Harris do/not-do to make these ADDITIONAL non-voters less enthusiastic? Something has made them more lazy/apathetic, correct?
That's a good point. It would seem that some are on the fence and can be inspired to go to the voter's booth.
Why this time? Hard to say. I will readily admit that I don't get why someone wouldn't vote because I project my own biases onto others, being a fallible human and all. I don't see how Harris was any less inspiring that Biden, in fact quite the opposite. If the extra votes last time were Trump haters, then why not vote this time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1598 by dronestar, posted 11-07-2024 11:39 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1608 by dronestar, posted 11-08-2024 3:56 PM Taq has not replied

  
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