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Author Topic:   2024 US Presidential Election
Morbus O'Somebody
Junior Member (Idle past 320 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 07-29-2023


Message 151 of 1148 (911893)
07-31-2023 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by marc9000
07-30-2023 5:46 PM


Re: The Ten Worst States for Quality of Life
marc9000 writes:
Conservatism and atheism just don't seem to go together.
From where I'm sitting they do. Your average antitheist keyboard warrior is a pretty conventional libertarian science bro. He looks at matters like free speech from his my-rights ivory tower and not according to any analysis of power dynamics. He'll spend a lot of time arguing about things like abortion or the burqa, but just to score anti-religion (and anti-Muslim) debater points and not because of any discernible commitment to women's empowerment. In fact, the misogyny of folks like Dawkins and Hitchens is just fine by him. He touts science as an unproblematic ideal, has no time for feminist or postcolonialist critiques of science, and handwaves away any uncomfortable truths he's presented about how science is in hock to corporate and military interests.
Sounds pretty conservative to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by marc9000, posted 07-30-2023 5:46 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Theodoric, posted 07-31-2023 11:55 AM Morbus O'Somebody has replied

  
Morbus O'Somebody
Junior Member (Idle past 320 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 07-29-2023


Message 154 of 1148 (911896)
07-31-2023 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Theodoric
07-31-2023 11:55 AM


Re: The Ten Worst States for Quality of Life
Theodoric writes:
Dawkins and Hitchens are not revered by atheists or antitheists.
I never said they were revered. However, since your signature has a Hitch quote first and foremost (and because I see people in debate groups say religion poisons everything with no apparent irony and characterize religion as a delusion on a pretty regular basis), it's fair to say rank and file antitheists still consider them both relevant and authoritative sources of analysis concerning religion and knowledge, despite their not-at-all-progressive views on everything from feminism and the Iraq War to Muslims and transpeople.
All I was really trying to say is that mainstream online atheists/antitheists seem generally conservative to me, contrary to what marc9000 claimed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Theodoric, posted 07-31-2023 11:55 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Tangle, posted 07-31-2023 12:32 PM Morbus O'Somebody has replied
 Message 158 by AZPaul3, posted 07-31-2023 5:25 PM Morbus O'Somebody has replied

  
Morbus O'Somebody
Junior Member (Idle past 320 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 07-29-2023


Message 156 of 1148 (911898)
07-31-2023 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Tangle
07-31-2023 12:32 PM


Re: The Ten Worst States for Quality of Life
Tangle writes:
instead of just making shit up
At least I explained the reasoning behind the point I was making. Instead of just accusing me of lying, you could always explain why you disagree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Tangle, posted 07-31-2023 12:32 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Morbus O'Somebody
Junior Member (Idle past 320 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 07-29-2023


Message 161 of 1148 (911904)
07-31-2023 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by AZPaul3
07-31-2023 5:25 PM


Re: The Ten Worst States for Quality of Life
AZPaul3 writes:
So, do you know of any reason why religion would be looked on as fantasy, its practice called poison and its bloody history labeled as evil?
Well, sure. It's because people without a nuanced grasp of history look at the phenomenon only through their agenda-colored glasses. It's because immature keyboard warriors have been given license by their celebrity spokesmockers to define religion in whatever way makes it seem like an inhumane delusion.
I'm not religious, incidentally. Per the thrust of this website, I agree that creationism is a crock. But the very idea that religion itself is just a conspiracy theory that simply needs to be fact-checked and debunked is such a puerile approach to the vast and problematic construct of religion that people have every reason to dismiss it as something you believe because it tells you what you want to hear, and something you can't be reasoned out of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by AZPaul3, posted 07-31-2023 5:25 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by AZPaul3, posted 08-01-2023 3:32 AM Morbus O'Somebody has replied

  
Morbus O'Somebody
Junior Member (Idle past 320 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 07-29-2023


(1)
Message 171 of 1148 (911926)
08-02-2023 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by AZPaul3
08-01-2023 3:32 AM


AZPaul3 writes:
Religion defined itself by its own actions. A clear, non-apologist view, can see the war, the blood. We already know religion caused, aided and abetted evil in humanity. But that is history. The problem is the blood shed for false (supernatural) reasons continues to this day. What the Christians are doing in the African HIV pandemic, what the Muslims are doing to girls’ sex and education, violence Sikh-Hindu clashes in Punjab, the Israel/Palestine wars, the levant conflicts, centuries of strife throughout the middle east, are all religious wars. There are religious and religiously-dominated ethnic war zones all over the planet.
You seem to have the weird belief that humanity is peaceful and friendly, but religion fucks it all up. I'm not disputing that prior to the advent of secular society, all civil authority was religious and there were wars and oppression aplenty. But anyone who lived through the 20th century is allowed to ask why secular society has continued to cause wars, oppression and genocide.
I'm also not disputing that religious identities map conveniently onto ethnic identities, so demagogues can exploit the differences to cause pogroms, civil wars and genocides. But if you look at what happened in Bosnia or Rwanda, or what's still happening in Palestine and India, and say the problem here is religion, I submit you're seeing what you want to see.
You may be right that "There hasn’t been a war, modern or ancient, that did not have God’s blessing," but you really think that WWII, for instance, wouldn't have come about if not for the magic and malign influence of religion? If so, you should think twice before accusing anyone else of delusion.
religion as a whole is an intellectual poison requiring suspension of critical thought
Congratulations, you just dealt yourself a hundred winning hands in a row. The reason they don't let you do that in Vegas is because there's nothing even remotely impressive about it. Again, it might make you feel good to vent your disdain and superiority, but your sloganeering says jack about the phenomenon of religion.
Religion has been used as a tool of control and violence for forever.
But by that standard alone, scientific and technological progress makes religion look like a piker. Does the way science enables domination and slaughter reflect badly on it even in the least, he asked expecting the answer NO?
the flow of religious poison
It seems like only one of us is trying to be reasonable here, and the other is just peddling stale rhetoric.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by AZPaul3, posted 08-01-2023 3:32 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by AZPaul3, posted 08-02-2023 2:57 PM Morbus O'Somebody has not replied
 Message 174 by AZPaul3, posted 08-02-2023 4:34 PM Morbus O'Somebody has not replied

  
Morbus O'Somebody
Junior Member (Idle past 320 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 07-29-2023


Message 182 of 1148 (911953)
08-04-2023 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by AZPaul3
08-03-2023 6:05 PM


Re: Trump vs Trump
AZPaul3 writes:
Did he know the election was lost? Having been told the election was lost by dozens of his closest advisors should he have known?
It would take a truly superhuman act of denial to resist the conclusion that Biden had won the election.
From what I've read, the early returns were so positive for Trump that all his toadies were scrambling to call him to congratulate him on his victory. But as more districts reported (particularly urban areas which took longer to report), Trump's lead vanished and he acted like a pissy toddler. I still remember him going on live TV on election night to complain that his glorious victory had been stolen. There's no conceivable way the asshole could have had legitimate knowledge of election fraud at that point, but he decided to push that narrative and has not let up.
You'd think that the fact that courts rejected every single one of the dozens of lawsuits the Republicans filed after the election would have made it clear that he didn't have a leg to stand on. Like I said, this takes an absolutely staggering act of denial on his part and I can't imagine it's not deliberate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2023 6:05 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Percy, posted 08-04-2023 11:09 AM Morbus O'Somebody has not replied

  
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