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Author Topic:   When Fascism Comes To America
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 91 of 303 (907958)
03-03-2023 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by jar
02-28-2023 8:40 AM


Re: So The Stores Should Let People Steal?
jar writes:
There is no "Lower Class" and only a pitiful, pathetic, deplorable, despicable, bigoted, willfully ignorant, dishonest person would think there was a "Lower Class" or that wanting to survive warps someone.
Is there an upper class? Are you suggesting that morally and ethically we should be a classless society? And how does "wanting to survive" in any way justify stealing? Is not one of the commandments not to steal? Im just sayin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 02-28-2023 8:40 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 92 of 303 (907963)
03-03-2023 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by xongsmith
02-16-2023 4:32 PM


Re: Conservatives vs Liberals
OK I will admit I lied. I did know roughly what a Gish Gallop was. Duane Gish and all that!
When I came to EvC in 1993, my main pastime was discussing religion and apologetics. I never cared much how the earth appeared.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by xongsmith, posted 02-16-2023 4:32 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(3)
Message 93 of 303 (907965)
03-03-2023 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
02-28-2023 7:59 AM


Re: So The Stores Should Let People Steal?
Phat notes:
Higher taxes are not a popular topic with the working class.
well, you know that the right-wing propaganda has been trying to con the poorer of us that taxes always means we have to pay more instead of the rich. or instead of the corporations and their stock-buy-back shit.
that their not popular speaks of the gullibility of people. tax the rich!!!
starting with those who make $400,000 and up.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 02-28-2023 7:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 03-04-2023 9:08 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 303 (907974)
03-04-2023 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by xongsmith
03-03-2023 5:03 PM


Tax The Rich
Tax The Rich is a buzzword. A Catchphrase. Lets examine it.
First of all, lets define "the rich". Shall you frame this issue or shall I?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by xongsmith, posted 03-03-2023 5:03 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by marc9000, posted 03-04-2023 10:58 AM Phat has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 95 of 303 (907977)
03-04-2023 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
03-04-2023 9:08 AM


Re: Tax The Rich
There are currently about 22 million millionaires in the U.S. 8.8% of the population. The "tax the rich" mantra seems to go after anyone making $400,000 per year or more, that probably comes close to double, if not more, of the 22 million, of those that are considered "rich". But being a millionaire doesn't necessarily mean that a person has a million dollars laying around, stuffed in their pockets, or in a savings account. Often, most of their money is tied up in property and equipment, that their employees use to produce a product or service. Their house and lifestyle can be just as modest as as a doctor or dentist or lawyer that makes half of what they make. Yet they take far more risks, it's common for employees to get hurt on the job and try to sue them for everything they have. All one has to do is drive around any city or industrial area and see shuttered warehouses, buildings, etc. But liberals are every bit as jealous of them as they are of the really filthy rich, like Bezos, or Zuckerberg, or Gates, or Musk. Or Pelosi, or Biden. WHOOPS, scratch those last 2. But anyway, when they seek to destroy all millionaires, they often to either destroy them, or cause them to raise their prices. The Bezos, the Gates etc. always find ways to exploit the governments tax the rich schemes to become even richer, because they're so much smater than the Democrats who want to further tax them. It's the ones that only have in total assets 1, or 2, or 3 million that take the hit on higher taxes, and the poor ALWAYS pay the price, in higher prices, fewer services.
Now Phat, the gang can call someone besides you every name except the father of a girl dog.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 03-04-2023 9:08 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 03-04-2023 1:07 PM marc9000 has replied
 Message 97 by kjsimons, posted 03-04-2023 1:37 PM marc9000 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 98 by Theodoric, posted 03-04-2023 2:17 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 303 (907979)
03-04-2023 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by marc9000
03-04-2023 10:58 AM


Tax The RichTax The Working Class(?!!)
marc9000 writes:
There are currently about 22 million millionaires in the U.S. 8.8% of the population. The "tax the rich" mantra seems to go after anyone making $400,000 per year or more, that probably comes close to double, if not more, of the 22 million, of those that are considered "rich".
Without checking your figures, I will assume they are close. Some of my friends own small businesses and, as you say, are responsible for a lot of expenses, insurances, and basic upkeep.
But being a millionaire doesn't necessarily mean that a person has a million dollars laying around, stuffed in their pockets, or in a savings account. Often, most of their money is tied up in property and equipment, that their employees use to produce a product or service. Their house and lifestyle can be just as modest as as a doctor or dentist or lawyer that makes half of what they make.
What I fear is that xongsmiths war cry of taxing the rich is aimed at this middle class rather than at Bezos, Musk, or Buffet. Its silly to fantasize that the Forbes 400 could even make a dent in the national debt. This is why the "tax the rich" ideological rant is misleading.
9000 writes:
All one has to do is drive around any city or industrial area and see shuttered warehouses, buildings, etc. But liberals are every bit as jealous of them as they are of the really filthy rich, like Bezos, or Zuckerberg, or Gates, or Musk.
To stereotype a little bit, EvC itself is full of software engineers and designers, teachers, and retired curmudgeons who are armchair elitists and all of the progressive mindset that has no clue where this country is going. They actually think that having faith in the sanctity and wisdom of the United States government is enough. I have news for them and have said so for the past five years and they sneer and aim their wimpy college degrees at me as if I am an ignorant hillbilly. I have not only gone to school (and some college) but am a self taught progressive thinker who can actually read. I do not think as they do, however. You can call me a hillbilly with a diploma.
But anyway, when they seek to destroy all millionaires, they often cause (small businesses)to raise their prices.
I think I get what you are trying to say. Essentially you are making the argument that while the progressives are the ones that only have roughly 1-3 million in wealth (and obviously a large taxable income)that take the hit on higher taxes.In essence, while the high income conservatives give their money to conservative candidates and churches,the high income liberals give their money to secular causes such as Save the Whales, Snails, Damselflies, Bees and Trees. . Oh and its the ones wealthier than myself ( yet poor by Forbes 400 standards) who thought that hard work paid off who will be targeted to pay the bill. The bottom line is that the ones that will get taxed are both liberal progressive and conservative small business. The conservatives will whine about supporting non religious programs through bigger government. The liberals are actually proud to voluntarily give money away to help LGBT science find ways to have babies. Or to help orphans. The conservatives want more tax breaks to be able to control where they give their money to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by marc9000, posted 03-04-2023 10:58 AM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by xongsmith, posted 03-04-2023 2:53 PM Phat has replied
 Message 104 by marc9000, posted 03-04-2023 10:08 PM Phat has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


(1)
Message 97 of 303 (907980)
03-04-2023 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by marc9000
03-04-2023 10:58 AM


Re: Tax The Rich
You are comparing apples and oranges when comparing people who have a million or more in cash/assets and those making over $400K. According to one study, the median income for millionaire households is ~ $131K and another study reported that only 31% averaged over $100K income per year. So by these values, most millionaires wouldn't be affected by tax increases on those making over $400K.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by marc9000, posted 03-04-2023 10:58 AM marc9000 has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 98 of 303 (907983)
03-04-2023 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by marc9000
03-04-2023 10:58 AM


Re: Tax The Rich
Are you lying or misrepresenting? Income tax is based on income not assets, but you know that. Only about .1% or less than 350,000 people make more than $1 million per year. If you have a source that says otherwise present it, if not retract.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by marc9000, posted 03-04-2023 10:58 AM marc9000 has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(5)
Message 99 of 303 (907985)
03-04-2023 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
03-04-2023 1:07 PM


Re: Tax The RichTax The Working Class(?!!)
Phat writes:
What I fear is that xongsmiths war cry of taxing the rich is aimed at this middle class rather than at Bezos, Musk, or Buffet.
WTF are you talking about? I am in the >=$400,000 camp. That is my current aim.
I feel so insulted!!!
It's like you don't read anything I write. Wait...maybe...
Did you mean that the GOP will block the Democrats from doing this and succeed?
That enough Dems will back away and join the vicious sadist GOP, including me?
Take Mark 9k's assinine comments, regarding his math. Sure - taxing the rich wont end the debt overnight,
but 40 years of it will take a big satisfactory bite. It really galls me that Musk and Bezos pay less in taxes
than your average school teacher.
Ever since Reagan fucked things over for the common citizen over 40 years ago we have heard bullshit after bullshit
about everything from drag queens & banning books & border control to trickle-down from the GOP,
taking our attention away from the biggest wealth hoarding in history.
Flip the Trump tax cuts to end the rich cuts and put back the expired working class cuts. Good place to start.
Then a wealth tax, like Warren's plan. Then Biden's >400K plan and so on, gradually get the country back
to the FDR-Eisenhower levels.
Vote BLUE BLUE BLUE until this insane sadistic, cruel fascist GOP is DEAD DEAD DEAD. Then the Democrats can
safely split up into their sub-parties, us old lefties, the new prograssives, liberals, conservatives and old conservatives.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 03-04-2023 1:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Theodoric, posted 03-04-2023 3:15 PM xongsmith has not replied
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 03-04-2023 3:17 PM xongsmith has replied
 Message 105 by marc9000, posted 03-04-2023 10:10 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 100 of 303 (907987)
03-04-2023 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by xongsmith
03-04-2023 2:53 PM


Re: Tax The RichTax The Working Class(?!!)
You can't fix stupid.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by xongsmith, posted 03-04-2023 2:53 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 303 (907988)
03-04-2023 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by xongsmith
03-04-2023 2:53 PM


Re: Tax The RichTax The Working Class(?!!)
I have a friend who self identifies as Liberal. He actually wants to pay more taxes if they get used in productive ways. He earns roughly $150,000 a year-$200,000 a year. He abhors Trump with a vengence. He works for Ball Aerospace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by xongsmith, posted 03-04-2023 2:53 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by xongsmith, posted 03-04-2023 5:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 103 by Theodoric, posted 03-04-2023 6:34 PM Phat has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 102 of 303 (907990)
03-04-2023 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
03-04-2023 3:17 PM


Re: Tax The RichTax The Working Class(?!!)
Phat misses again with:
I have a friend...
Yeah, and he wouldn't be affected. So what?
BTW I wouldn't mind paying more either, if I could direct it into a
government appropriation of my choice, like the Dept. of Education.
This is also getting perilously close to "I have a Black friend..."

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 03-04-2023 3:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 103 of 303 (907993)
03-04-2023 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
03-04-2023 3:17 PM


Re: Tax The RichTax The Working Class(?!!)
And what is your point?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 03-04-2023 3:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 03-06-2023 12:27 PM Theodoric has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 104 of 303 (908000)
03-04-2023 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
03-04-2023 1:07 PM


Re: Tax The RichTax The Working Class(?!!)
What I fear is that xongsmiths war cry of taxing the rich is aimed at this middle class rather than at Bezos, Musk, or Buffet. Its silly to fantasize that the Forbes 400 could even make a dent in the national debt. This is why the "tax the rich" ideological rant is misleading.
It is, and his Message 99 proves it. In part;
quote:
Good place to start.
Then a wealth tax, like Warren's plan. Then Biden's >400K plan and so on, gradually get the country back
to the FDR-Eisenhower levels.
"Start", "so on", "gradually" easy to see that many tax-the-rich advocates aren't satisfied with current proposals of taxing only those making $400,000 per year or more, they want to see gradual increases in the future that will include those making less than that, as well as assets that two other posters here deny could be threatened with new taxes.
Concerning the 90% Eisenhower tax rate claim, here's a link from USA Today (not a conservative source) that briefly exposes that for what it is.
Fact check: Viral post exaggerates tax rates under Eisenhower
quote:
Based on our research, we rate FALSE the claim that the corporate tax rate under Eisenhower was 90%. The corporate rate ranged from 30% to 52% between 1952 and 1963. One part of the tax code did reach over 90%, but that rate only applied to the top earners' individual income taxes – not corporate income taxes.
Even if tax rates were somewhat higher in the 1950's, it's ridiculous to compare that day and time to today. It's a completely different world now.
Your question to them, "let's define the rich", has gone unanswered. As Message 97 shows, the "over $400,000" incomes wouldn't include most millionaires. Some Democrats (Joe Manchin and his constituents?) might agree that most millionaires aren't to be considered "rich", while others (AOC and her constituents would angrily disagree.
To stereotype a little bit, EvC itself is full of software engineers and designers, teachers, and retired curmudgeons who are armchair elitists and all of the progressive mindset that has no clue where this country is going. They actually think that having faith in the sanctity and wisdom of the United States government is enough. I have news for them and have said so for the past five years and they sneer and aim their wimpy college degrees at me as if I am an ignorant hillbilly. I have not only gone to school (and some college) but am a self taught progressive thinker who can actually read. I do not think as they do, however. You can call me a hillbilly with a diploma.
I have no college, but have made it to age 68 and know something about history and human nature. It amazes me to (recently) see websites showing colored maps of different states in the U.S., ranking them "dumb", or not, based ONLY on the percentages of their populations with college degrees. A lot of famous people, who contributed a lot to society, did not have college degrees. The ones who made those maps and claims - many would consider them to be pretty dumb. The U.S. founders didn't make college education an issue in any way, in how the government should operate.
...the high income liberals give their money to secular causes such as Save the Whales, Snails, Damselflies, Bees and Trees.
Don't forget climate change!! Did you watch the rather long link Taq put up in Message 17 Did you at least get through the part from about 3 1/2 to the 5 minute mark? I can't take the time to copy it word for word, but to summarize, he talks about how fascism is about a "psychological law of the mental unity of crowds." When individuals identify with crowds, they lose the ability to think for themselves. Crowd psychology acts as a hypnotiser. Fascism seeks to sway the crowd by telling them what they want to hear. To "emotionally charge the crowd to ideas that gets them excited. Climate change activism excites liberals because they believe new laws will harm "the rich". The climate change narrative continues day by day - ABC World News Tonight (that I regularly watch) spends a considerable portion of their half hour news show each evening sensationalizing about the weather, no matter how normal snow is in winter, heat is in summer, in past history. Climate change alarmism is fascism in its purest form.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 03-04-2023 1:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 03-06-2023 12:34 PM marc9000 has replied
 Message 114 by xongsmith, posted 03-06-2023 12:50 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 105 of 303 (908001)
03-04-2023 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by xongsmith
03-04-2023 2:53 PM


Re: Tax The RichTax The Working Class(?!!)
It really galls me that Musk and Bezos pay less in taxes
than your average school teacher.
That's a laughable liberal talking point that very few people believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by xongsmith, posted 03-04-2023 2:53 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
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