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Author Topic:   Picayune Gods & Those Who Market Them
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 91 of 153 (912447)
09-02-2023 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
09-01-2023 9:48 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
Some of us fear a one world government without borders. You don't?
Well it's clear that you do but the question was what what would Jesus want - in fact, command - to be done about the gross inequalities in the world?
And why you think it ok to think he's wrong about it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-01-2023 9:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 09-02-2023 10:22 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 92 of 153 (912449)
09-02-2023 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Tangle
09-02-2023 3:16 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Actually I dont think He is wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 09-02-2023 3:16 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 09-02-2023 11:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 94 by Percy, posted 09-02-2023 2:04 PM Phat has replied
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 09-02-2023 6:30 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 93 of 153 (912451)
09-02-2023 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
09-02-2023 10:22 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
It's easy being a Christian if you you don't actually have to behave like a Christian.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 09-02-2023 10:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 94 of 153 (912454)
09-02-2023 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
09-02-2023 10:22 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
Actually I don't think He is wrong.
But you *do* think Jesus is wrong. For some misbegotten reason, you think Jesus is just as cruel as yourself. In Message 81 you said:
Phat in Message 81 writes:
Not to also drag this old thread off topic, but you DO realize what would happen if this world had no borders. Poor and hungry people would pour into our communities and we would be forced to help them. Do you honestly think that is what Jesus would want?
Yes, that's exactly what Jesus would want, but you're denying that Jesus would want you to help the poor and unfortunate. How dare you attribute to Jesus cruelty as vile and hateful as your own. I'm not even a Christian and I'm shocked. I'm sure you're familiar with this passage:
quote:
41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.
43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”
  —Mark 12:41-44
You are the living embodiment of the opposite of what Jesus would do. Shame on you!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 09-02-2023 10:22 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-04-2023 2:25 PM Percy has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 95 of 153 (912455)
09-02-2023 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
09-02-2023 10:22 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
Not to also drag this old thread off topic, but you DO realize what would happen if this world had no borders. Poor and hungry people would pour into our communities and we would be forced to help them. Do you honestly think that is what Jesus would want?
This is bugging me. Is it really what you think or is it just another shoot-from-hip thoughtless comment? I'm finding it difficult to understand how you can claim to be Christian and not at least understand his core teachings and what he stands for.
You tell us that god speaks to you, yet he never seems to tell you to do the things that seem to matter to him in your book. It's all a comfortable self-centred delusion isn't it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 09-02-2023 10:22 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-02-2023 8:25 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 09-04-2023 2:14 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 96 of 153 (912456)
09-02-2023 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
09-02-2023 6:30 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
It's all a comfortable self-centred delusion isn't it?
You would think these self-centered people would also be self-aware wouldn't you? But that never seems to be the case.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 09-02-2023 6:30 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Percy, posted 09-03-2023 7:20 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 97 of 153 (912460)
09-03-2023 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Tanypteryx
09-02-2023 8:25 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Tanypterx writes:
You would think these self-centered people would also be self-aware wouldn't you? But that never seems to be the case.
They worship at the alter of YouTube. If Lord YouTube says it it must be so.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-02-2023 8:25 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Percy, posted 09-03-2023 7:42 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 09-04-2023 2:32 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 98 of 153 (912461)
09-03-2023 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Percy
09-03-2023 7:20 AM


The YouTube Rabbit Hole
Coincidentally came across this just now from The Atlantic: The World Will Never Know the Truth About YouTube’s Rabbit Holes. The opening two paragraphs seem to explain exactly what happened to Phat (and to my nephew, whom I've mentioned a couple times):
The Atlantic:

Very, Very Few People Are Falling Down the YouTube Rabbit Hole

The site’s crackdown on radicalization seems to have worked. But the world will never know what was happening before that.

Around the time of the 2016 election, YouTube became known as a home to the rising alt-right and to massively popular conspiracy theorists. The Google-owned site had more than 1 billion users and was playing host to charismatic personalities who had developed intimate relationships with their audiences, potentially making it a powerful vector for political influence. At the time, Alex Jones’s channel, Infowars, had more than 2 million subscribers. And YouTube’s recommendation algorithm, which accounted for the majority of what people watched on the platform, looked to be pulling people deeper and deeper into dangerous delusions.
The process of “falling down the rabbit hole” was memorably illustrated by personal accounts of people who had ended up on strange paths into the dark heart of the platform, where they were intrigued and then convinced by extremist rhetoric—an interest in critiques of feminism could lead to men’s rights and then white supremacy and then calls for violence. Most troubling is that a person who was not necessarily looking for extreme content could end up watching it because the algorithm noticed a whisper of something in their previous choices. It could exacerbate a person’s worst impulses and take them to a place they wouldn’t have chosen, but would have trouble getting out of.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Percy, posted 09-03-2023 7:20 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 99 of 153 (912462)
09-04-2023 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
09-02-2023 6:30 PM


Fear Of Authority
Phat, initially writes:
You DO realize what would happen if this world had no borders. Poor and hungry people would pour into our communities and we would be forced to help them. Do you honestly think that is what Jesus would want?
Tangle writes:
This is bugging me. Is it really what you think or is it just another shoot-from-hip thoughtless comment? I'm finding it difficult to understand how you can claim to be Christian and not at least understand his core teachings and what he stands for.
Thats a fair question. I believe that Jesus not only exists as what some humanists may say is an altruistic concept and role model but as our moral and spiritual leader. I was shooting from the hip that day into my own echo chamber which is EvC. I *knew* that it would provoke a reaction, yet what many of you did not seem to infer from my suggestion was my fear of authority which is NOT Jesus. In other words, lets look at it from your angle. You believe Jesus to be a myth and are somehow attempting to connect my real feelings with that "fact" as you see it. If ever the world was on fire and millions of people needed help, I would honestly have no problem giving all that I had if necessary. What bugs me about you is that you dont believe in Jesus and yet would be perfectly content to submit to a global authority and/or consensus to mandate cooperation from all of us.
Tangle writes:
It's all a comfortable self-centred delusion isn't it?
Honestly, I do get irritated because I myself am getting older and fear counting on the government in order to survive. It would indeed be a comfortable delusion to have to count on a global secular humanist coalition in order for me and my old ass to go quietly into that good night without spending my latter years under a bridge begging wealthier people such as yourself for food. Yes, I WOULD be pissed.
When I engage in these conversations with you and others, I honestly feel Jesus in the middle of them. Getting scolded by a bunch of atheists is in fact noble, because if God can speak from the heart of atheists, God cannot be far from any of us who so desire not only His presence but His authority.
Again, the authority I fear is from a secular government mandating that I MUST give all that I have up for the common good. To me, that is terror on earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 09-02-2023 6:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by nwr, posted 09-04-2023 3:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 103 by Percy, posted 09-04-2023 6:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 106 by dwise1, posted 09-05-2023 12:44 PM Phat has replied
 Message 115 by Tangle, posted 09-06-2023 11:08 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 100 of 153 (912463)
09-04-2023 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Percy
09-02-2023 2:04 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Percy writes:
You are the living embodiment of the opposite of what Jesus would do. Shame on you!
I will take your rebuke with grace. You are right. And as you say, you are not even a Christian. And yet you know the right scriptures. You are a heartfelt individual.
My point is that I would not submit to a mandate from a secular humanist government to give up all that I had into some giant account set up with the intention of helping everyone.
I love Jesus and strive to listen to Him daily. You guys don't even know what I do on a daily basis. Many a time I buy someone a meal to help them and because they show the grace to approach me for help rather than stealing the meal and walking out the door.
I wont claim any privileged status simply by being a Christian for I know that many of you who don't believe in Jesus would do the same thing and likely often have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Percy, posted 09-02-2023 2:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Percy, posted 09-04-2023 6:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 101 of 153 (912464)
09-04-2023 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Percy
09-03-2023 7:20 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Tanypteryx writes:
You would think these self-centered people would also be self-aware wouldn't you? But that never seems to be the case.
Is it such a crime to be self centered? Or do you trust Uncle Sam to take care of you and Mrs. Damselfly in your declining years?
My guess is that you trust your people. The blues. And you despise the reds as that other aberration seeking to destroy the soul of America.
Percy writes:
They worship at the alter of YouTube. If Lord YouTube says it it must be so.
What would you say to a guy who "worships at the altar" of The Washington Post? Does he get a complete picture of what is happening and what needs to happen?
Just saying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Percy, posted 09-03-2023 7:20 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-04-2023 10:53 PM Phat has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6421
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(4)
Message 102 of 153 (912465)
09-04-2023 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
09-04-2023 2:14 PM


Re: Fear Of Authority
Phat in Message 99 writes:
, yet what many of you did not seem to infer from my suggestion was my fear of authority which is NOT Jesus.
If you have that much fear of authority, then become a hermit and live out it the wilderness.
Yes, that's a tough life. But you don't have to be concerned with authority.
This is what bothers me about libertarians. They want the benefits from living in a society but they don't want to pay their share of the cost of that society.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 09-04-2023 2:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


(4)
Message 103 of 153 (912466)
09-04-2023 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
09-04-2023 2:14 PM


Re: Fear Of Authority
Phat writes:
Phat in Message 81 writes:
You DO realize what would happen if this world had no borders. Poor and hungry people would pour into our communities and we would be forced to help them. Do you honestly think that is what Jesus would want?
If ever the world was on fire and millions of people needed help, I would honestly have no problem giving all that I had if necessary.
All you're saying is that it would take millions of people needing help before you'd listen to Jesus. Mere thousands of desperate people, like those on the border, isn't enough for you. It would have to be millions before you'd listen to Jesus's message.
Phat addressing Tangle writes:
What bugs me about you is that you don't believe in Jesus and yet would be perfectly content to submit to a global authority and/or consensus to mandate cooperation from all of us.
You have some preconceptions about world government that I doubt are shared by many others and don't even make sense. Why do you assume a world government would "mandate cooperation" and require its citizens "to submit?" A wide variety of governments can be observed all around the world from beneficent to malevolent, from enlightened to benighted, from representative to dictatorial. A hypothetical world government could take any form, yet you assume it could only have certain very specific negative qualities.
Again, the authority I fear is from a secular government mandating that I MUST give all that I have up for the common good. To me, that is terror on earth.
Where are you getting these nonsensical ideas? Have you been watching YouTube again?
A world government seems very unlikely at this point, but there's no reason to believe it won't have all the same characteristics as the local, state and national governments you're already familiar with. There will be elections and laws and taxes and policies to maintain healthy economies and communities.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 09-04-2023 2:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


(4)
Message 104 of 153 (912467)
09-04-2023 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
09-04-2023 2:25 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
My point is that I would not submit to a mandate from a secular humanist government to give up all that I had into some giant account set up with the intention of helping everyone.
No one is suggesting you should, or even that that is a realistic possibility.
We're only pointing out your contradictory professions, one of following Jesus, the other the very antithesis of following Jesus.
Phat writes:
I love Jesus and strive to listen to Him daily.
If that were true then you'd at least occasionally express his ideas, but you don't. For you Jesus is a habit of expression, not a guiding light.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-04-2023 2:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 105 of 153 (912468)
09-04-2023 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
09-04-2023 2:32 PM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat in Message 101 writes:
Tanypteryx writes:
You would think these self-centered people would also be self-aware wouldn't you? But that never seems to be the case.
Is it such a crime to be self centered?
Of course not, don't be absurd, but your response makes my point. I would expect you to be more self-aware.
Phat in Message 101 writes:
Or do you trust Uncle Sam to take care of you and Mrs. Damselfly in your declining years?
Of course not, but I do expect my government to live up to its obligation to serve the people and to provide services that the government collected from me and other citizens taxes to pay for. My wife and I worked past retirement age and were careful savers and investors so we provided for ourselves. My wife turned out to be an astute stock market investor she has made profits on all the stocks she has sold since 2008 and has increased our saving substantially.
Phat in Message 101 writes:
My guess is that you trust your people. The blues. And you despise the reds as that other aberration seeking to destroy the soul of America.
You should never gamble because you are a horrible guesser.
Phat in Message 101 writes:
What would you say to a guy who "worships at the altar" of The Washington Post? Does he get a complete picture of what is happening and what needs to happen?
I have never encountered someone who "worships at the altar" of The Washington Post and I don't know what that means. I know some people who read parts of the WP, but they all fact check and use multiple sources of news, so I guess you could say that they worship supported evidence rather than bullshit.
Phat in Message 99 writes:
Again, the authority I fear is from a secular government mandating that I MUST give all that I have up for the common good. To me, that is terror on earth.
Phat in Message 100 writes:
My point is that I would not submit to a mandate from a secular humanist government to give up all that I had into some giant account set up with the intention of helping everyone.
Yeah, we know this is your motto, you remind us often.
Can you provide evidence or an example of this policy being promoted by any individuals or organizations?
You do realize that taxes are never all anyone has, don't you?
You do realize that taxes are written into laws in the United States by representatives elected by the people or by laws directly voted on by the people, don't you?
You do realize that no one in your income bracket has ever been proposed to have to pay more than a handful of dollars to help those less privileged than you, don't you?
I suspect it's far more likely that you will receive far more help from the government than you have paid in taxes.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 09-04-2023 2:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 09-06-2023 9:30 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
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