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Author Topic:   Picayune Gods & Those Who Market Them
jar
Member (Idle past 362 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 76 of 153 (906165)
02-08-2023 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
02-08-2023 11:02 AM


Re: Pieces Parts
Not at times, but rather always.
Plus you simply ignore ALL of the evidence people have provided for you if it doesn't say what you want to hear.
You are simply willfully ignorant and stupid.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 02-08-2023 11:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 02-08-2023 11:24 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18138
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 153 (906167)
02-08-2023 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
02-08-2023 11:18 AM


Re: Pieces Parts
Not at all. I simply dispute what you claim to be evident.
You really cannot convince a believer that God is all in their head. I suppose you can call that fact stupid, but I would call your response infallibly arrogant.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 02-08-2023 11:18 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 02-08-2023 11:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 79 by Theodoric, posted 02-08-2023 12:14 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 362 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 153 (906174)
02-08-2023 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
02-08-2023 11:24 AM


Re: Pieces Parts
God is irrelevant Phat.
Believers believe the fantasy they create.
But we are talking about reality rather than fantasy.
And you NEVER dispute, you only deny. I don't think you have any idea what the word dispute even means.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 02-08-2023 11:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8926
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 79 of 153 (906185)
02-08-2023 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
02-08-2023 11:24 AM


Re: Pieces Parts
Do you really think he is talking only about a god?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 02-08-2023 11:24 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 02-08-2023 12:26 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18138
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 80 of 153 (906186)
02-08-2023 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Theodoric
02-08-2023 12:14 PM


Re: Pieces Parts
No, I knew that he was referring to my thinking process and ideological beliefs about humanity in general

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Theodoric, posted 02-08-2023 12:14 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18138
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 81 of 153 (912425)
09-01-2023 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
02-02-2023 11:06 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
The impetus for starting this session was to get everyone at the same table (believers and non-believers, Conservatives and Liberals alike) and hash it out without derailing other topics.
I have had a lot of "spiritual" (perhaps to some of you it is humanist) thinking lately. My plan was initially to go in the other room and quietly pour my heart out to God concerning a couple of people who were(are) on my heart, but what ended up happening is that I decided to watch Amazon Prime (The Marvelous Mrs.Maisal) God spoke quite clearly to me through the very Jewish secular drama and humor. The reason that I started this particular post, however, was to respond to Percy while taking the conversation out of Church History and placing it here.
Percy writes:
We shouldn't make this thread about you, but you do have a tendency to direct hate and resentment, along with attribution of some pretty derogatory attributes, toward many people and groups. In large groups people are pretty much the same everywhere, be they Democrats, atheists, homeless people, or migrants, but you seem to have a marked antipathy toward them, especially the unfortunate.
Ironically, that was one of the lessons that I learned tonight. There are no insignificant people in this world. That in a nutshell is what God wanted me to know.
Percy writes:
WWJD? You have to ask? Render unto Caesar. Borders would mean nothing to Jesus. We are all God's children. Borders are Godless and artificial constructions of men.
Not to also drag this old thread off topic, but you DO realize what would happen if this world had no borders. Poor and hungry people would pour into our communities and we would be forced to help them. Do you honestly think that is what Jesus would want?
Percy writes:
The far right wing is anti-democratic. Its authoritarian tendencies lean toward fascism.
I am prepared to make an argument that the Left Wing can be quite authoritarian themselves, but I will try and finish this post without reacting.
The Two Christianities and Their Problems writes:
All religions are totalitarian and all religions are authoritarian, although this latter quality is enhanced in theistic religions since of course their founding premise is that there is a super being that literally authored the universe in the first instance and authored the religion in the next, presumably to correct something that went wrong in the initial offering; and of course, the super being (because he is super) can’t possibly be held accountable for anything that goes wrong in his creation. So, when something does go wrong it must be the fault of the humans who are assigned caretakers of at least their part in creation. However in order to hold the humans accountable this super being cannot simply snuff them out and start anew – that would essentially admit that the creation of the humans was itself a mistake on the part of the super being, and a super being cannot make mistakes. So the humans have to be given a good lashing and made to feel guilty; but to remind them of the super being’s power, his majesty, how good he is in having created them and not snuffing them out, the unquestionable author also generates the fundamental principles of his creation’s religion. These fundamental principles structure the totalitarian control over their lives. They tell you what to do, what to think (“good thoughts”), what not to think (“the bad thoughts”), they tell you how to get up in the morning, what time to get up in the morning when to go to bed, how to go to bed (‘always say your prayers before you get into it’), they tell you what to do with your hands, how to wash, how to speak, how and when to light a candle- or not. And of course, what to do with your genitals. They tell you what to do with your children, what to tell your children, what your children are to do with you; and then, there’s all those foods you’re supposed to eat, foods you can’t eat (or feel terribly guilty about eating), and foods you’re to get violently angry when you see others eat it. Commandments cradle to the grave that, is the very essence of the religious life. This is certainly totalitarianism, the very definition of it. All attempts at modernist fascist or communistic totalitarian states (however supposedly secular) take this as their model for imitation...
Comments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 02-02-2023 11:06 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by AZPaul3, posted 09-01-2023 9:11 AM Phat has replied
 Message 83 by Percy, posted 09-01-2023 9:42 AM Phat has replied
 Message 87 by DrJones*, posted 09-01-2023 12:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 88 by nwr, posted 09-01-2023 1:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8441
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 82 of 153 (912426)
09-01-2023 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
09-01-2023 8:24 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Not to also drag this old thread off topic, but you DO realize what would happen if this world had no borders. Poor and hungry people would pour into our communities and we would be forced to help them. Do you honestly think that is what Jesus would want?
My god, Phat, you're supposed to be a christian. I thought the answer to this would be obvious.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 09-01-2023 8:24 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-01-2023 9:48 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22274
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 83 of 153 (912428)
09-01-2023 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
09-01-2023 8:24 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
Percy writes:
WWJD? You have to ask? Render unto Caesar. Borders would mean nothing to Jesus. We are all God's children. Borders are Godless and artificial constructions of men.
Not to also drag this old thread off topic, but you DO realize what would happen if this world had no borders. Poor and hungry people would pour into our communities and we would be forced to help them. Do you honestly think that is what Jesus would want?
The question was WWJD, not WWPD (AbE: I originally misread Phat's response. I responded more appropriately in Message 94.)
Percy writes:
The far right wing is anti-democratic. Its authoritarian tendencies lean toward fascism.
I am prepared to make an argument that the Left Wing can be quite authoritarian themselves,...
I'm against all anti-democratic leanings regardless of origin, while you justify the right's anti-democratic tendencies by saying, "Oh yeah? Well the left does it, too." Except that they don't.
My political wind vane isn't left/right but democratic/anti-democratic and sane/insane. New Hampshire has a Republican governor who is democratic and sane, my two primary qualifications. He's fine.
On the other hand, Florida has a Republican governor who is certifiably anti-democratic and insane. He's ghastly.
Who I favor politically, who anyone favors politically, should depend upon their having sane positions on important current issues, upon having the best interests of the country at heart (rather than of a political party or even just a single individual), and upon having demonstrated good judgment that will serve them well as the they face the unforeseeable during their term in office.
Anyone who's choice of candidate is based on left-good/right-bad or vice versa is putting no thought or research into it and shouldn't be voting.
That being said, Trump has bent the Republican part all out of recognizable shape. They're no longer conservative, don't even know what they are. They're so uncertain what they stand for, other than being against Democrats and anything Democrats want to do, that they didn't even have a presidential platform in 2020. Their policy positions? Whatever Trump last said. It's a lot easier to find insane Republicans ("The 2020 election was stolen." "January 6th was like a tourist visit." "Covid was faked." "There's no climate change, and even if there is it's natural variation.") than Democrats (I can't think of a single Democrat conspiracy theory).
About your quote from The Two Christianities and Their Problems, sounds good to me. How about you?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 09-01-2023 8:24 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 10-21-2023 12:35 PM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18138
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 153 (912429)
09-01-2023 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by AZPaul3
09-01-2023 9:11 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Some of us fear a one world government without borders. You don't?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by AZPaul3, posted 09-01-2023 9:11 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Theodoric, posted 09-01-2023 11:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 86 by Percy, posted 09-01-2023 12:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 89 by AZPaul3, posted 09-01-2023 2:56 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 90 by NosyNed, posted 09-01-2023 8:17 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 09-02-2023 3:16 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8926
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 85 of 153 (912433)
09-01-2023 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
09-01-2023 9:48 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Nope. Not sure why we should.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-01-2023 9:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22274
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


(2)
Message 86 of 153 (912436)
09-01-2023 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
09-01-2023 9:48 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat writes:
AZPaul3 writes:
Not to also drag this old thread off topic, but you DO realize what would happen if this world had no borders. Poor and hungry people would pour into our communities and we would be forced to help them. Do you honestly think that is what Jesus would want?
My god, Phat, you're supposed to be a christian. I thought the answer to this would be obvious.
Some of us fear a one world government without borders. You don't?
You fear one world government because people would flow from less advantaged regions to more advantaged regions, and the people of the more advantaged regions would be forced to help those migrating in. I have two questions:
  • Where is your Christian love and charity? How is it that you appear to have none, in stark contrast to atheists and skeptics here who appear to have it in spades. Why are by far the least Christian expressions coming, consistently over a long period of time, from the Christians?
    We are all just people and we're all in this together. When other people are in need we help them. We tighten our belts and contribute what we can. In the end, the better off the newcomers the better off we all are.
  • If one world government ever comes to pass, why do you think it will happen like turning on a switch rather than gradually over time?
But something like turning on a switch did happen when the Soviet Union fell and East and West Germany joined to again become one country. There was a net outflowing of people from East to West Germany, and the eastern economy was uncompetitive with the west. It was very disruptive for a time, over a decade. The government stepped up social welfare programs for those in the east, and major infrastructure investments were made in the east. Eastern Germany remains weaker economically than western but only trails by about 18% at present, and overall Germany has become stronger and wealthier than ever.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-01-2023 9:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2281
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.7


(1)
Message 87 of 153 (912437)
09-01-2023 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
09-01-2023 8:24 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Poor and hungry people would pour into our communities and we would be forced to help them. Do you honestly think that is what Jesus would want?
Because of course Jesus's most famous lesson was "Fuck you, I got mine". Seriously Phat, this kind of thinking is why Jar always said that heaven isn't going to have a lot of christians in it.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 09-01-2023 8:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6407
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 88 of 153 (912439)
09-01-2023 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
09-01-2023 8:24 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Phat in Message 81 writes:
I am prepared to make an argument that the Left Wing can be quite authoritarian themselves, but I will try and finish this post without reacting.
There are some authoritarian tendencies at the extremes. The leftists that I know and have known have all been of the "live and let live" way of thinking. The right seems far more authoritarian.
Comments?
What you quoted seems to be a good assessment of the authoritarian tendencies of religion.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 09-01-2023 8:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8441
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 89 of 153 (912442)
09-01-2023 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
09-01-2023 9:48 AM


Re: Jesus red and Jesus blue
Some of us fear a one world government without borders. You don't?
Nope.
One of my degrees is in economics. Borders disrupt the free flow of people and materials across regions. Just like the free market, let the needs of the population dictate this flow and even-out the disparities. Governments and borders get in the way. Indeed, they make such disparities much worse.
Why fear, Phat? What do you think you are going to lose?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-01-2023 9:48 AM Phat has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8993
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(4)
Message 90 of 153 (912446)
09-01-2023 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
09-01-2023 9:48 AM


Borderless
You'd have been against the formation of the United States of America because it meant the states had to give up some power to be part of a larger union with greater benefits.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-01-2023 9:48 AM Phat has not replied

  
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