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Author Topic:   Absence of Evidence
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9503
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 16 of 39 (905416)
01-26-2023 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
01-26-2023 7:43 AM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
Phat writes:
Keep in mind that at that time, less than 10% of the overall population was even literate and of those even fewer who could write statements. Information was mixed with gossip and innuendo then as it is now. Those who could write were few and far between and had likely never met Jesus personally.
What I was meaning was that there were highly literate historians and diarists alive during those times and in that location whose work we have but who did not mention Jesus or those events.
And then we have the controversy over who actually wrote the Gospels, the motive(s) in writing them, and the whole issue of redactors.

Which to me is indicative of a story worthy of a smear campaign. In my mind, it is a subjective suggestion that a spiritual war/conflict did in fact exist within human nature. There was a lot of interest in suppressing and changing the story.
Mostly it was a lot of different prophets doing the same apocalyptic riffs and a few of their fantastical stories being picked/fabricated many years after the "fact".

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 01-26-2023 7:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2023 10:45 AM Tangle has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9133
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 17 of 39 (905417)
01-26-2023 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tangle
01-26-2023 10:25 AM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
What I was meaning was that there were highly literate historians and diarists alive during those times and in that location whose work we have but who did not mention Jesus or those events.
A subject we have addressed already on this forum
Writers who could/should have mentioned Jesus
Message 8
Mostly it was a lot of different prophets doing the same apocalyptic riffs and a few of their fantastical stories being picked/fabricated many years after the "fact".
In Phat's post, we can see the dishonesty of the christianists. In one breath they claim that we can not expect records or accuracy from the time period because most people were illiterate(adult male literacy rate, the only ones that counted was probably 20-25%). In the next breath, they claim a concerted smear campaign and that what finally was written down decades later is accurate, even though we have no authors' names or backgrounds or source material.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2023 10:25 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2023 10:53 AM Theodoric has replied
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 01-26-2023 11:28 AM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 01-26-2023 2:59 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9503
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 18 of 39 (905418)
01-26-2023 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Theodoric
01-26-2023 10:45 AM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
You did a great job finding that post!

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2023 10:45 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2023 11:16 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10028
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 19 of 39 (905419)
01-26-2023 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
01-15-2023 12:51 PM


Tangle writes:
The phrase "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" has always bugged me. We throw it around all the time but I'm not sure we're using it correctly.
In isolation, that phrase is really useless. What we should be focusing on is the burden of proof and the processes by which induction and deduction work. In other words, positive claims require positive evidence, not simply a lack of evidence for other claims.
When it does apply is when we've not actually looked for the evidence or not looked properly, then it's simply an argument from ignorance.
How would you know if you have not looked properly? That's the problem.
Personally, I find the lack of evidence for an interventionist god where we should find such evidence - such as payer works, miracles happen, god changes the bread and wine into his body and blood at the eucharist, god loves me etc - actually is evidence founded on absence.
The burden of proof lies with those who claim divine intervention occurs. Their inability to supply this evidence is a good reason to tentatively reject their claims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2023 12:51 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9133
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 20 of 39 (905420)
01-26-2023 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Tangle
01-26-2023 10:53 AM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
I have it bookmarked. That thread has saved me a lot of research through the years.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2023 10:53 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 39 (905422)
01-26-2023 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Theodoric
01-26-2023 10:45 AM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
What im saying is that the literate people of that time were likely non-believers and had no interest or sense of urgency in touching the story. The minority who were literate did not want the story to spread. Why you think i'm dishonest is unclear. All that I am doing is speculating. Last I checked, free speech still exists. Your ongoing disdain for apologetic's is noted. You would fit in well with the literate figures of that day. You would have little personal interest in furthering the story.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2023 10:45 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2023 11:58 AM Phat has replied
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2023 12:11 PM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 22 of 39 (905424)
01-26-2023 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
01-26-2023 11:28 AM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
quote:
What im saying is that the literate people of that time were likely non-believers and had no interest or sense of urgency in touching the story. The minority who were literate did not want the story to spread. Why you think i'm dishonest is unclear. All that I am doing is speculating.
What you are doing is making up excuses. Urgency is not an issue. Nor is belief - although Jews should likely be counted as believers. If Jesus had worked unique large-scale miracles it is very likely that someone would have reported something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 01-26-2023 11:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 01-26-2023 11:59 AM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 39 (905425)
01-26-2023 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by PaulK
01-26-2023 11:58 AM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
Oh they reported it. My theory is that the powers in charge did not want it spread or reported.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2023 11:58 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 01-26-2023 12:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 26 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2023 12:57 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9503
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 24 of 39 (905427)
01-26-2023 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
01-26-2023 11:28 AM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
Phat writes:
What im saying is that the literate people of that time were likely non-believers and had no interest or sense of urgency in touching the story.
Historians wrote about whatever was going on at the time. There was no threat to anyone, when alive he was just another loony talking end-world stuff. Christianity came much later.
Why you think i'm dishonest is unclear. All that I am doing is speculating. Last I checked, free speech still exists. Your ongoing disdain for apologetic's is noted. You would fit in well with the literate figures of that day. You would have little personal interest in furthering the story.
I did not say that you were dishonest. I suspect you mean someone else.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 01-26-2023 11:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 25 of 39 (905434)
01-26-2023 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
01-26-2023 11:59 AM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
quote:
Oh they reported it. My theory is that the powers in charge did not want it spread or reported
Which is at least adjacent to conspiracy theory. There is no particular reason for “them” to suppress the story. Your “theory” is just something you made up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 01-26-2023 11:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9133
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 26 of 39 (905435)
01-26-2023 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
01-26-2023 11:59 AM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
When you have nothing present an unevidenced conspiracy theory.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 01-26-2023 11:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 01-26-2023 2:44 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 39 (905438)
01-26-2023 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Theodoric
01-26-2023 12:57 PM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
I know. I was never schooled in the disciplines of evidenced responses and/or footnotes. Not that it is any excuse....

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2023 12:57 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2023 3:15 PM Phat has replied
 Message 31 by Stile, posted 01-27-2023 9:21 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 39 (905439)
01-26-2023 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Theodoric
01-26-2023 10:45 AM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
Theodoric writes:
Writers who could/should have mentioned Jesus
Message 8
That post from 2005 was quite thorough. I can't simply wave away the bits of researched evidence which you and others have dug up.
And yet I would never let go of my beliefs.
Which leaves me making stuff up. (Admittedly)
Now do you see my moments of melancholy? Believers occasionally hit a wall and can get frustrated trying to get around it.
The whole concept, proven to a substantial degree yet not beyond reasonable doubt, is that there is little solid evidence for Jesus Christ apart from those of us who cling to our beliefs and even try and improve them. What more is there?
And yet I've never doubted God or Jesus. I DO question and allow myself to read the critics even though it shakes me up at times.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2023 10:45 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Theodoric, posted 01-26-2023 4:13 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9503
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 29 of 39 (905441)
01-26-2023 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
01-26-2023 2:44 PM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
Phat writes:
I know. I was never schooled in the disciplines of evidenced responses and/or footnotes. Not that it is any excuse....
Why not learn? Start with an online critical thinking course.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 01-26-2023 2:44 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 01-27-2023 9:39 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9133
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 30 of 39 (905447)
01-26-2023 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
01-26-2023 2:59 PM


Re: Can I Get A Witness?
I don't care or want you to walk away from your beliefs. I want you to understand that these are your beliefs, no one else's. Also, they have no evidence. But that is ok for you because that is what you believe.
Your right-wing conservatism is another thing.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 01-26-2023 2:59 PM Phat has not replied

  
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