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marc9000
Member
Posts: 1343
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 91 of 114 (904900)
01-10-2023 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Taq
01-10-2023 11:18 AM


Re: Midwest unprepared
Can you name a non-authoritarian law that has passed?
I would consider laws prohibiting things like murder and robbery to be non-authoritarian. Most people overwhelmingly agree with laws like that. It goes back to what I said about tradition and common sense. If you think laws against murder and robbery are authoritarian because they take away personal freedoms of murderers and robbers, that's fine, we then have nothing more to discuss. Is that what the Bob Altemeyer book said that Dwise1 referenced? Have you read it?
quote:
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams
John Adams Quotes About Morality | A-Z Quotes
How well morality works in a society can be confirmed by history. For some people, it's common sense. Especially people from Adam's day, who experienced, or heard about first hand, government tyranny and oppression. Or some people today like myself, who have actually picked up a history book. The further and further we get from U.S. foundings, the more people there are who take for granted the U.S. way of life, and play into the hands of wannabe / future tyrants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Taq, posted 01-10-2023 11:18 AM Taq has not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1343
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 92 of 114 (904901)
01-10-2023 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ringo
01-06-2023 11:38 AM


Re: Midwest unprepared
The special interests are trying to sell more petroleum products, more gas=guzzling cars, etc.
This is where climate change alarmists always stop. They never specifically name solutions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ringo, posted 01-06-2023 11:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by xongsmith, posted 01-10-2023 9:34 PM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 94 by Rahvin, posted 01-10-2023 9:41 PM marc9000 has replied
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 01-11-2023 11:13 AM marc9000 has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 93 of 114 (904903)
01-10-2023 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by marc9000
01-10-2023 9:21 PM


Re: Midwest unprepared
Marc9k writes:
The special interests are trying to sell more petroleum products, more gas=guzzling cars, etc.
This is where climate change alarmists always stop. They never specifically name solutions.
Migosh child! Have you sleeping under a rock?
Solar powered charging stations for electric cars has been named for decades.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by marc9000, posted 01-10-2023 9:21 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3976
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 10.0


(4)
Message 94 of 114 (904904)
01-10-2023 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by marc9000
01-10-2023 9:21 PM


Re: Midwest unprepared
quote:
This is where climate change alarmists always stop. They never specifically name solutions.
...are you kidding?
The primary mitigation against climate change is the move away from fossil fuels. Not just consumer vehicles, but power generation, freight, industrial use, etc.
The solution is wind, solar, hydro, and nuclear. Nuclear would have been better a decade or two ago; now, it takes so long to construct new nuclear plants that it's unlikely to help. Hydro power is similar, it takes a while to build dams. Wind and solar are the best current solutions, and there are technological advances being made that may play a significant role as well.
Reducing greenhouse emissions mitigates the greenhouse-related global average temperature increase.
And because it's already too late to prevent all of the effects of climate change, we need to evaluate natural disaster planning. 100-year storms are now going to happen a lot more often than 100 years. Levies need to be reinforced, in some cases raised. Areas that are currently above sea level need to start planning for the near future, when they will be below sea level.
I could go on. The US Dept of Defense has quite literally identified climate change as the biggest threat to US national security for years now, and has been planning accordingly. Tomorrow's wars will be fought over water resources. The US military has been planning to roll out electric Humvees (not actually Hummers, but same role) and tanks. Yes, electric tanks.
People have been literally screaming specific solutions for decades. Did you fall and hit your head?
But this is stuff that's talked about literally all the time.

“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by marc9000, posted 01-10-2023 9:21 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-10-2023 11:57 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 103 by marc9000, posted 01-11-2023 9:21 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3773
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(3)
Message 95 of 114 (904905)
01-10-2023 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Rahvin
01-10-2023 9:41 PM


Re: Midwest unprepared
Did you fall and hit your head?
He's a disinformation troll who wants to see the world burn.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Rahvin, posted 01-10-2023 9:41 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 96 of 114 (904910)
01-11-2023 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by marc9000
01-10-2023 9:21 PM


Re: Midwest unprepared
marc9000 writes:
ringo writes:
The special interests are trying to sell more petroleum products, more gas=guzzling cars, etc.
This is where climate change alarmists always stop. They never specifically name solutions.
Didn't you see the specific solutions when you quoted them?
1. Sell less petroleum products.
2. Sell fewer gas-guzzling cars.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by marc9000, posted 01-10-2023 9:21 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 01-11-2023 1:57 PM ringo has replied
 Message 104 by marc9000, posted 01-11-2023 9:26 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 97 of 114 (904917)
01-11-2023 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
01-11-2023 11:13 AM


Re: Midwest unprepared
You cant very well mandate electric vehicles when your blessed poor people cannot afford them. And passing the expense on to the next class up only brings that class down.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 01-11-2023 11:13 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Theodoric, posted 01-11-2023 3:14 PM Phat has replied
 Message 100 by Taq, posted 01-11-2023 4:01 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 102 by dwise1, posted 01-11-2023 4:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 01-12-2023 10:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8140
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 98 of 114 (904924)
01-11-2023 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Phat
01-11-2023 1:57 PM


Re: Midwest unprepared
Has there been a mandate? Any mandate? Market forces are driving the change. Why are you so anti-free market?
There are electric cars comparably priced to ICE cars, and more every year.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 01-11-2023 1:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 01-11-2023 3:39 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 99 of 114 (904926)
01-11-2023 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Theodoric
01-11-2023 3:14 PM


Re: Midwest unprepared
There are no cheap used ones. The working class cannot afford new cars.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Theodoric, posted 01-11-2023 3:14 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Theodoric, posted 01-11-2023 4:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9323
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 100 of 114 (904927)
01-11-2023 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Phat
01-11-2023 1:57 PM


Re: Midwest unprepared
Phat writes:
You cant very well mandate electric vehicles when your blessed poor people cannot afford them.
There are EV's under 30k, brand new. This is the same prices as ICE competitors.
They will only become more affordable as the tech and manufacturing matures.
You also should factor in the cost over the period of ownership which is much lower for EV's. There's a pretty cool article over at Car & Driver. Here is there bottom line cost for 3 years of ownership:
quote:
Hyundai Kona: $19,385
Hyundai Kona Electric: $21,426
Ford F-150: $26,505
Ford F-150 Lightning: $23,840
This factors in all costs, from maintenance to fuel to resell value. The cost of ownership is close to the same. Sometimes the EV wins, sometimes the ICE wins, but it's close.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 01-11-2023 1:57 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8140
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 101 of 114 (904928)
01-11-2023 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
01-11-2023 3:39 PM


Re: Midwest unprepared
Again you deflect. Answer the question or admit you are spouting shit again. What mandate?
Do you truly think once the market matures there will not be used electric cars for sale? Are there any cheap used ICE cars less than 5 years old?
You are radically anti-freemarket.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 01-11-2023 3:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5563
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(4)
Message 102 of 114 (904929)
01-11-2023 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Phat
01-11-2023 1:57 PM


Re: Midwest unprepared
You cant very well mandate electric vehicles when your blessed poor people cannot afford them.
What specifically are you talking about?
Are you claiming that seeking to phase out internal combustion vehicles and replacing them with electric vehicles over a period of one to two decades (by 2035 is what I seem to recall from a few years ago) is supposed to mean that everybody regardless of income level must switch over by tomorrow? If so, then that sounds as loony as marc9000's rants about instantaneously stopping oil production.
As production of new cars shifts to a higher percentage of electric vehicles, both market forces (increased availability of new electric and lowered availability of new gas leading to more electric purchases) and improving technology will make the sticker price of new electric cars more competitive with that of new gas jobs.
At the same time, increasing numbers of earlier electric models will enter the used-car market, which has its own set of market characteristics including a wide range of customer levels. Over time, there will be enough used electric cars to be within reach of those lower income levels.
Please note that we saw the same thing happening when we phased out leaded gasoline along with the cars that required leaded gas.
Another consideration is the cost of maintenance. There will be many things that you as a backyard mechanic will not be able to fix on an electric vehicle, but rather you will need to take it to a mechanic with the training and equipment to work on it. Actually, we are already there with fuel injectors (no more carburetors, which I've worked with) and electronic ignition (no more replacing and setting points, which I've worked with), all of which are controlled by "brick brains" (car computers) for which you need a special computer to work with. I haven't check, but does AutoZone even carry those special mechanic's computers?
Also, please note even now with used gas cars that even those clunkers are out of reach for many of the poor.
So there's a lot involved that will change over time. Your complaints appear to be based on current conditions rather than what we can reasonably expect future conditions to be.
bring the price tag

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 01-11-2023 1:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1343
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 103 of 114 (904931)
01-11-2023 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Rahvin
01-10-2023 9:41 PM


Re: Midwest unprepared
marc9000 writes:
This is where climate change alarmists always stop. They never specifically name solutions.

...are you kidding?

The primary mitigation against climate change is the move away from fossil fuels. Not just consumer vehicles, but power generation, freight, industrial use, etc.
Yes I know, and that mitigation is to do it QUICKLY. The Green New Deal was proposed by A.O.C. in 2019. It's now 2023. 7 more years to 2030, 4 years since 2019. The Green New Deal proposes 100% clean energy by 2030. Think we'll make it by then? Without drastic new authoritarian laws? We constantly get specifics about the recent increases in global temperatures, complete with charts and graphs and predictions and all of that. Why can't we get specifics about what new laws we'll need to achieve the 2030 goal? From Message 57;
NosyNed writes:
If you step back and look at it we are way, way to slow to stop burning fossil fuels.
"Authoritarian"? Rules are needed when the oil giants have been deliberately spreading misinformation after knowing for decades there is a problem. It's the same reason we need to lock up serial killers.

We left getting on with it about a generation too long so now the disruption and difficulty will be greater than it had to be. Leaving it any longer will only make the pain that much greater.
WHAT RULES?
From way back in Message 24;
Taq writes:
Why can't governments use laws to encourage the replacement of fossil fuels? Why won't this help?
WHAT LAWS? Does anyone here know what the word "specific" means?
The solution is wind, solar, hydro, and nuclear. Nuclear would have been better a decade or two ago; now, it takes so long to construct new nuclear plants that it's unlikely to help. Hydro power is similar, it takes a while to build dams. Wind and solar are the best current solutions, and there are technological advances being made that may play a significant role as well.
This is happening through free markets. If there are government laws that are speeding up this process, name them specifically. And we'll look at their costs.
And because it's already too late to prevent all of the effects of climate change, we need to evaluate natural disaster planning. 100-year storms are now going to happen a lot more often than 100 years. Levies need to be reinforced, in some cases raised. Areas that are currently above sea level need to start planning for the near future, when they will be below sea level.
This would be a ton of specifics, I won't ask for all that. But if you're aware of steps that have been taken already, and steps that are proposed, do you have any figures on what the COSTS are?
I could go on. The US Dept of Defense has quite literally identified climate change as the biggest threat to US national security for years now, and has been planning accordingly. Tomorrow's wars will be fought over water resources. The US military has been planning to roll out electric Humvees (not actually Hummers, but same role) and tanks. Yes, electric tanks.
I'm not alone in thinking tomorrow's wars will be fought over an economic meltdown. Biden has signed into law $5 trillion in new spending, in his first two years. $31 trillion in debt now, will it become $36 trillion by 2024?
People have been literally screaming specific solutions for decades. Did you fall and hit your head?
But this is stuff that's talked about literally all the time.
Specific solutions involving free markets yes, but no specifics about LAWS. And the free market solutions are moving WAY to slow, to meet the goals of the Green New Deal. !00% renewable by 2030? What are the proposals to do with all the new fossil fuel burning cars and trucks and farm machinery and construction machinery that's being built in 2023? Throw it all away? How many more trillions in debt to cover all that waste?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Rahvin, posted 01-10-2023 9:41 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Taq, posted 01-12-2023 1:55 PM marc9000 has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1343
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 104 of 114 (904932)
01-11-2023 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
01-11-2023 11:13 AM


Re: Midwest unprepared
Didn't you see the specific solutions when you quoted them?
1. Sell less petroleum products.
2. Sell fewer gas-guzzling cars.
"Sell less, sell fewer". How is that achieved specifically? New laws for the sellers? New laws for the buyers? A "yes" answer isn't specific. I'm wondering about specific details. One oil company gets destroyed by laws? All oil companies get downsized by laws? Buyers aren't permitted by laws to buy what they want and need? If they can't get what they need, do more government programs help them out? Costs?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 01-11-2023 11:13 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by xongsmith, posted 01-12-2023 3:58 AM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 01-12-2023 11:11 AM marc9000 has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2402
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 105 of 114 (904934)
01-12-2023 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by marc9000
01-11-2023 9:26 PM


Re: Midwest unprepared
m9k blathers on:
New laws for the sellers? New laws for the buyers? A "yes" answer isn't specific. I'm wondering about specific details.
Yes. One of the laws will say that if your name on EvCforum.net is Marc9000, then you, specifically, have to eat shit and barf oil into the only car still allowed to pollute on the planet. We get to to drive the heavy equipment vehicles over you repeatedly, over and over,, chained down in your car, every time you complain about "special interests" on EvC.
So STFU.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by marc9000, posted 01-11-2023 9:26 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
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