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Author Topic:   Lost Christianities
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 16 of 29 (904415)
12-29-2022 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
12-29-2022 7:55 AM


Re: the gospels that didn't make the cut
Phat writes:
Perhaps our new member just likes to air his opinion. You got a problem with that?
He made a claim
quote:
The four canonical gospels were accepted by the church because those who knew Jesus were alive to verify their accuracy.
I doubt his claim is true. One reason I think it false is because the canon wasn't settled until the mid 4th century.
But you know how this works, he now has to provide the evidence he's used to make the claim.
If it's just an unevidenced opinion; end of conversation.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 12-29-2022 7:55 AM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 17 of 29 (904428)
12-29-2022 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
12-29-2022 8:03 AM


Re: AZ Does It
Please stop trolling. If you don't have anything to add to the conversation, no one wants to hear your inane comments.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 12-29-2022 8:03 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20812
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 18 of 29 (904463)
12-30-2022 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
12-29-2022 7:51 AM


Re: the gospels that didn't make the cut
Phat writes:
There is indeed such a thing as "the church".
No there is not.
Phat writes:
The church is the people on this planet who are called out and/or chosen by the Creator himself..
There is no such thing as "the creator" either. Every church has its own creator - and every church has it's own standards to define who is "chosen".
Phat writes:
Of course, you will argue that I lack evidence...
You don't just "lack" evidence. You DENY the evidence that your idea is not the only idea.
Phat writes:
... among believers...
Again, there is no such thing as one set of "believers". There are many sets of believers, each with its own set of beliefs, which are often mutually exclusive.
Phat writes:
... the evidence is in our hearts and not our carnally thinking minds.
No. You do not get your own evidence. Everybody has the same evidence.
And your personal set of fairy tales and prejudices is just as carnal as eveybody else's.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-29-2022 7:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 12-30-2022 3:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20812
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 19 of 29 (904465)
12-30-2022 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
12-29-2022 8:00 AM


Re: the gospels that didn't make the cut
Phat writes:
we (im assuming our new member also) believe that the Bible was inspired.
How can you even say that with a straight face? You throw out almost everything that Jesus said in the Bible.
Phat writes:
It is not simply a book written by fallible humans with a secular motive to control the population.
YOU are the one who claims you are not "limited" to a "dusty old book". How COULD you be "limited" by a book that you call "inspired"?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 12-29-2022 8:00 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 12-30-2022 3:46 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17036
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 20 of 29 (904483)
12-30-2022 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
12-30-2022 10:54 AM


Fixed it for you.
ringo writes:
You throw out almost everything that Jesus said in the Bible.
​How can you even say that with a straight face?
I've argued but one thing. That we are commanded to give everything up. It may well be true, but you politicize it and charge the (mainly) conservative evangelicals with failing to do so. In your mind, they reject everything Jesus said and you lump me with them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 12-30-2022 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 12-31-2022 11:46 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17036
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 21 of 29 (904484)
12-30-2022 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
12-30-2022 10:49 AM


Re: the gospels that didn't make the cut
There is indeed such a thing as "the church".
ringo writes:
No there is not. There is no such thing as "the creator" either.
You better put your copy of the book down and walk quietly away. You have no respect for the celestial author who inspired primative people to record His impressions on their hearts and minds.
ringo writes:
Every church has its own creator - and every church has it's own standards to define who is "chosen".
Granted this is so. Humans are legends in their own minds. But truth is not relative, my friend. The Creator exists whether or not your "enlightened" intelligence accepts Him or not.
ringo writes:
You DENY the evidence that your idea is not the only idea.
OK, guilty as charged. Now what?
ringo writes:
Again, there is no such thing as one set of "believers". There are many sets of believers, each with its own set of beliefs, which are often mutually exclusive.
Only one group is on the right track. Again, they are called out. They were chosen initially and they chose to respond. You, on the other hand, chose to follow your own intelligence. Wrong turn.
ringo writes:
Everybody has the same evidence.
Yet only some accept it. Others look for excuses to trash it, reject it, and explain away their free will as if they were right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 12-30-2022 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 12-31-2022 12:05 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20812
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 22 of 29 (904515)
12-31-2022 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
12-30-2022 3:46 PM


Re: Fixed it for you.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
You throw out almost everything that Jesus said in the Bible.
​​How can you even say that with a straight face?
Because you throw out almost everything that Jesus said in the Bible.
You throw out what Jesus said you must do to be saved. You throw out all of the evidence that that was a universal requirement: You throw out the disciples, you throw out the lady with two mites, you throw out the early church, you even throw out the Old Testament widow who fed Elijah.
Phat writes:
I've argued but one thing. That we are commanded to give everything up.
"One thing" with many threads of evidence.
Phat writes:
It may well be true, but you politicize it and charge the (mainly) conservative evangelicals with failing to do so.
Nonsense. I said that "you throw out almost everything that Jesus said in the Bible." There's nothing political about that. There's no mention of conservatives there.
Phat writes:
In your mind, they reject everything Jesus said and you lump me with them.
Again, nonsense. I am not "lumping you in" with anybody. I am talking about YOU ONLY. So what if other conservatives have the same contempt for Jesus that you have?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 12-30-2022 3:46 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20812
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 23 of 29 (904518)
12-31-2022 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
12-30-2022 3:56 PM


Re: the gospels that didn't make the cut
Phat writes:
You better put your copy of the book down and walk quietly away.
Not as long as there are bullets in both of my guns, buster.
YOU had better pick up the book, wipe the spit off and READ it.
Phat writes:
You have no respect for the celestial author...
I have more respect for the authors, plural, than you have. YOU are the one who rejects the book. But the authors, plural, are no more "celestial" than Fred Flintstone.
Phat writes:
Humans are legends in their own minds.
YOU are certainly a legend in your own mind, thinking I'm going to walk away.
Phat writes:
But truth is not relative, my friend.
Go ahead and SHOW that it isn't.
Phat writes:
The Creator exists whether or not your "enlightened" intelligence accepts Him or not.
And his name is Quetzalcoatl, whether you accept him or not. Or his name is Zeus, whether you accept him or not.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Again, there is no such thing as one set of "believers". There are many sets of believers, each with its own set of beliefs, which are often mutually exclusive.
Only one group is on the right track.
Which group? Go ahead and SHOW us how you are right and everybody else is wrong.
Phat writes:
Again, they are called out. They were chosen initially and they chose to respond.
Yup, Raelians are called out. They were chosen initially and they chose to respond.
Mormaons are called out. They were chosen initially and they chose to respond.
Phat writes:
You, on the other hand, chose to follow your own intelligence. Wrong turn.
Again, feel free to SHOW any wrong turn I have made. I have challenged you multiple time to do that and you never respond. PUT UP for once.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Everybody has the same evidence.
Yet only some accept it.
Only some accept gravity. Those who don't are called idiots. Or dead, if they choose to challenge the evidence.
Phat writes:
Others look for excuses to trash it, reject it, and explain away their free will as if they were right.
Testing is not trashing. What is not there does not need to be trashed.
Explaining is not explaining "away". What is not there does not need to be explained "away".

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 12-30-2022 3:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 12-31-2022 4:12 PM ringo has replied
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 12-31-2022 4:17 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17036
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 24 of 29 (904542)
12-31-2022 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
12-31-2022 12:05 PM


Re: the gospels that didn't make the cut
ringo writes:
Testing is not trashing. What is not there does not need to be trashed.

Explaining is not explaining "away". What is not there does not need to be explained "away".
Noted. You taught me never to park my brain at the door, never be afraid of throwing something (or someone) away if they are omnipotant, and keep fighting as long as there are bullets in both of your guns. Happy New Year!

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 12-31-2022 12:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 01-02-2023 11:10 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17036
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 25 of 29 (904543)
12-31-2022 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
12-31-2022 12:05 PM


Re: the gospels that didn't make the cut
ringo writes:
I have more respect for the authors, plural, than you have. YOU are the one who rejects the book. But the authors, plural, are no more "celestial" than Fred Flintstone.
They are but scribes. They write what they are told (from within) to write. Perhaps you had best ditch your argument of relativity among human gods and get back tto what you know (or once knew) is true. BTW I bought us both a box of bullets. Help yourself!

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 12-31-2022 12:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 01-02-2023 11:14 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20812
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 26 of 29 (904592)
01-02-2023 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
12-31-2022 4:12 PM


Re: the gospels that didn't make the cut
Phat writes:
You taught me never to park my brain at the door...
I have TRIED to teach you. You have not learned.
Phat writes:
... and keep fighting as long as there are bullets in both of your guns.
I'm still waiting for you tp shoot back.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 12-31-2022 4:12 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20812
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 27 of 29 (904593)
01-02-2023 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
12-31-2022 4:17 PM


Re: the gospels that didn't make the cut
Phat writes:
They are but scribes. They write what they are told (from within) to write.
They wrote that too.
Phat writes:
Perhaps you had best ditch your argument of relativity among human gods...
I will gladly ditch any argument if you can SHOW that it is wrong.
Phat writes:
... get back tto what you know (or once knew) is true.
What I post is what I know (to the best approximation) is true.
Phat writes:
BTW I bought us both a box of bullets...
Then USE them. Make an argument.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 12-31-2022 4:17 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Theodoric, posted 01-02-2023 11:41 AM ringo has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 28 of 29 (904598)
01-02-2023 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ringo
01-02-2023 11:14 AM


Re: the gospels that didn't make the cut
He thinks metaphors are arguments.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 01-02-2023 11:14 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 01-02-2023 12:03 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20812
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 29 of 29 (904601)
01-02-2023 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Theodoric
01-02-2023 11:41 AM


Re: the gospels that didn't make the cut
Theodoric writes:
He thinks metaphors are arguments.
Yes, metaphors are simple.
"The Lord is my shepherd." That was easy. A shepherd would never ask his sheep to DO anything. End of story.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Theodoric, posted 01-02-2023 11:41 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
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