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Author Topic:   Phat's Bookshelf
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(4)
Message 121 of 174 (904830)
01-08-2023 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Phat
01-08-2023 9:03 AM


Re: FANTASYLAND by Kurt Anderson
Phat writes:
Initially, as I began to listen to it, I realized that it was not necessarily a pro Christian worldview book, and I began to feel a bit of anxiety. After praying about it, I felt a green light and a thumbs up in regard to reading it and studying it as deeply as I have my other books.
So this is how you decide what books to read? Only "pro Christian worldview books" are safe to read? No wonder you're stuck on such crazy ideas.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Phat, posted 01-08-2023 9:03 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 01-09-2023 2:49 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 122 of 174 (904844)
01-09-2023 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by ringo
01-08-2023 1:44 PM


Re: FANTASYLAND by Kurt Anderson
Note that I decided to read the book regardless what it was about. I'm just admitting anxiety at being exposed to uncomfortable worldviews.
Now as for you, you have the audacity to imagine that your rational view on things is always superior to religious belief. You threw out the Holy Baby with the bathwater.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 01-08-2023 1:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 01-09-2023 10:49 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 123 of 174 (904861)
01-09-2023 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Phat
01-09-2023 2:49 AM


Re: FANTASYLAND by Kurt Anderson
Phat writes:
I'm just admitting anxiety at being exposed to uncomfortable worldviews.
If your worldview was solid, why would you be anxious about challenges to it?
Phat writes:
... you have the audacity to imagine that your rational view on things is always superior to religious belief.
There is nothing audacious or imaginary about it. Rational is always superior to irrational. Period. End of story.
Phat writes:
You threw out the Holy Baby with the bathwater.
You have a real talent for shooting yourself in the foot. It's a wonder there's still anything left of you below the waist.
YOU are the one who threw the Holy Baby out. YOU are the one who denies everything He said after He grew up.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 01-09-2023 2:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 01-10-2023 7:03 AM ringo has replied
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 01-10-2023 7:13 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 124 of 174 (904881)
01-10-2023 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by ringo
01-09-2023 10:49 AM


Re: FANTASYLAND by Kurt Anderson
ringo writes:
Rational is always superior to irrational. Period. End of story.
You do not get to dictate to me what the beginning and ending of the story is. You also do not get to have your own evidence, a comment that you have used on me a time or two. It may well be that Kurt Anderson is a non-believer, but he is very adept and skilled at describing trends in American culture.
As a matter of fact, Anderson describes the land of grown-up make believe in American politics starting with JFK and ending with Ronald Reagan. In this case, irrationality drove the myth of American exceptionalism and described an era (1960's, bragging rights to having the first man on the moon, a whimsical preoccupation with youth portrayed early on by an American president(JFK) who was dashingly good looking, a war hero (PT 109) and a youthful wife (31) who presided over an American Empire from a white palace known as Camelot. JFK even had as a girlfriend the idyllic sexual fantasy of Marilyn Monroe. In this early era of political theater, art imitated life and life imitated art.
Kurt Anderson:
As JFK was about to be elected, Norman Mailer wrote that "America's politics would now be also America's favorite movie, America's first soap opera, America's best-seller." Up until Kennedy, the wall between government and show business had been thick. His father had owned a movie studio, and not only did Jack pal around with Hollywood people, he agreed to go on stage at Madison Square Garden to receive the super salacious "Happy Birthday,Mr. President" serenade from his mistress Marilyn. (...)For a few years, Kennedy had used television and the rest of the fantasy-industrial complex(...)After JFK,president-as-performer became more explicit. In the 1980s,as America kept turning the dial up toward full Fantasyland, we were ready for Reagan as we wouldn't have been earlier. "For Ronald Reagan", said Pat Buchanan, who served as his White House communications director, "the world of legend and myth is a real world.
Compared to Reagan, reality TV star Trump was a piker.
Kurt Anderson:
His winning presidential campaign in 1980 had policy specifics that jibed with his misty vision of a simpler, happier, more patriotic old-fashioned America.(...) As a vacationing president, he wore a cowboy hat and rode a horse at his ranch in southern California. (...)Not so cute was a president of the United States expecting apocalyptic biblical prophecies to be fulfilled soon.
So don't tell me that rational always trumps(no pun intended ) irrational. The national soap opera awaits a new and capable actor. We the people are tired of reality. We want America to be back in the saddle again. We do not want to pay the bill nor do we want any sort of reparations. Everyone is equal and everyone is on the same page going forward. And we have no problem with Jesus being black, as long as He returns on a white horse. (thinly veiled attempt at humor)

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 01-09-2023 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by ringo, posted 01-10-2023 10:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 125 of 174 (904882)
01-10-2023 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by ringo
01-09-2023 10:49 AM


Re: FANTASYLAND by Kurt Anderson
ringo writes:
If your worldview was solid, why would you be anxious about challenges to it?
I do not look forward to a post-Christian culture. I very much believe that Jesus is alive eternally and is(was) a real person. Life should always turn out fair in the end. Everybody gets a ribbon. We the people will be rescued (and will need rescuing, by the way) before our species becomes extinct.
The anxiety stems from the idea that there is no rescuer and that the world will end up trying to fix itself. I strongly believe that humans are incapable of enough humility to get along with each other. I doubt whether *any* of you would give everything up in order to save the people on the planet. We need Jesus. Not some imitator who will propose a unified global effort at change and growth. Case closed. End of story.
ringo writes:
YOU are the one who threw the Holy Baby out. YOU are the one who denies everything He said after He grew up.
This is a blatant falsehood and misrepresentation of my position. Just so the peanut gallery can take notes.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 01-09-2023 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 01-10-2023 11:17 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 126 of 174 (904886)
01-10-2023 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
01-10-2023 7:03 AM


Re: FANTASYLAND by Kurt Anderson
Phat writes:
You do not get to dictate to me what the beginning and ending of the story is.
I certainly DO get to tell you that rational beats irrational EVERY TIME. Period. End of story.
Phat writes:
You also do not get to have your own evidence, a comment that you have used on me a time or two.
And I have never claimed to have my own evidence, so why would you say such a silly thing?
Phat writes:
It may well be that Kurt Anderson is a non-believer, but he is very adept and skilled at describing trends in American culture.
That is completely irrelevant to what we are discussing.
Phat writes:
In this case, irrationality drove the myth of American exceptionalism...
Which makes my f**king point. If Americans were rational, they would be much better off. Why are you blathering on about it?
Phat writes:
So don't tell me that rational always trumps(no pun intended ) irrational.
You just finished demonstrating that it does!
Phat writes:
We the people are tired of reality. We want America to be back in the saddle again.
Which is irrational! Americans are in the fix(es) they are in largely because of their wannabe irrationality. Rationality would be better! How can you not see that?
It's like you're trying to prove that the earth is flat by showing all the evidence that it is round.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 01-10-2023 7:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 127 of 174 (904887)
01-10-2023 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Phat
01-10-2023 7:13 AM


Re: FANTASYLAND by Kurt Anderson
Phat writes:
Life should always turn out fair in the end. Everybody gets a ribbon. We the people will be rescued (and will need rescuing, by the way) before our species becomes extinct.
Funny you should say that since you're always preaching AGAINST equality.
Your problem is that you're looking for some external entity to rescue you while you're heaping scorn on your fellow humans who actually CAN help you.
Phat writes:
The anxiety stems from the idea that there is no rescuer and that the world will end up trying to fix itself.
Well, of course there is no rescuer. The world WILL have to fix itself.
Phat writes:
I strongly believe...
You don't "strongly believe" anything. You may weakly wish.
Phatt writes:
...that humans are incapable of enough humility to get along with each other.
What has it got to do with humility?
Phat writes:
I doubt whether *any* of you would give everything up in order to save the people on the planet.
Why do you keep harping on that? You don't seem to doubt very strongly.
Phat writes:
We need Jesus.
No. We don't.
YOU claim to "have" Jesus and what good has it done you? You're wrong about almost everything.
Phat writes:
Not some imitator who will propose a unified global effort at change and growth.
How can you be so stupid? A global effort is essential, now more than ever.
Phat writes:
Case closed.
You have no case to close. You have no leg to stand on.
End of story.
You're ignoring the story.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
YOU are the one who threw the Holy Baby out. YOU are the one who denies everything He said after He grew up.
This is a blatant falsehood and misrepresentation of my position.
No it is not.
You HAVE thrown out what Jesus said. You don't even TRY to refute that you have. You just deny, deny, deny, like a devoted Trumpite.
Phat writes:
Just so the peanut gallery can take notes.
How can the peanut gallery take notes when you never reply to the rebuttals?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 01-10-2023 7:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 01-10-2023 2:57 PM ringo has replied
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 01-12-2023 10:46 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 128 of 174 (904891)
01-10-2023 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by ringo
01-10-2023 11:17 AM


Re: FANTASYLAND by Kurt Anderson
ringo writes:
Funny you should say that since you're always preaching AGAINST equality.
Allow me to clarify. I am against financial equality since it allows the government to tax the middle class in order to pay the bills that the poor can't pay and the rich wont pay. While I understand your basic mantra that a rising tide lifts all boats, (which in principle is superior to trickle-down economics) I lament the fact that the bills seem to be increasing (lately almost exponentially) and that inflation itself is a hidden tax. I believe that in America a small businessman should be unencumbered from earning more than his less ambitious (or financially strapped) neighbors without having his hard work taxed to lift up the masses out of poverty. They need to work too.
ringo writes:
Well, of course there is no rescuer.
And of course you have no evidence apart from your own conclusions...nor do any of you. In fact, I think that you all are against the belief based on the evolution and impact of right wing politics. Were Jesus to whisper to your conscience some night, perhaps not long from now, you would be a fool to dismiss your experience as madness.
ringo writes:
The world WILL have to fix itself.
The world can't fix itself without draconian authoritarian meddling from what you will initially see as necessary government intervention.
And I'm not being negative. I'm being realistic.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 01-10-2023 11:17 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by ringo, posted 01-11-2023 11:05 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 129 of 174 (904909)
01-11-2023 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
01-10-2023 2:57 PM


Re: FANTASYLAND by Kurt Anderson
Phat writes:
And of course you have no evidence apart from your own conclusions...nor do any of you.
And YOU have no evidence that Quetzalcoaltl isn't the "real" god. The only difference between you and me is that I treat all lack of evidence equally.
Phat writes:
In fact, I think that you all are against the belief based on the evolution and impact of right wing politics.
You call that thinking? It's more like an empty accusation.
Phat writes:
Were Jesus to whisper to your conscience some night, perhaps not long from now, you would be a fool to dismiss your experience as madness.
On the contrary, I would be a fool to embrace madness as a replacement for reality.
Phat writes:
The world can't fix itself without draconian authoritarian meddling....
Nonsense. The world has neen fixing itself forever.
And learn what authoritarian means!
Phat writes:
And I'm not being negative. I'm being realistic.
You ARE being negative - foolishly negative, without a scrap of evidence to back up your negativity.
And you wouldn't recognize reality if it sat down beside you in church.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 01-10-2023 2:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 01-11-2023 2:27 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 130 of 174 (904919)
01-11-2023 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by ringo
01-11-2023 11:05 AM


Re: FANTASYLAND by Kurt Anderson
And you wouldn't recognize reality if it sat down beside you in church.
At least she knows enough to go to church. She sits in the third pew right between Mother Nature and Father Time.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ringo, posted 01-11-2023 11:05 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 01-12-2023 11:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 131 of 174 (904936)
01-12-2023 10:36 AM


AI Superpowers: China, Silicon Valley, and the New World Order
This book stirred up yet more questions (and concerns) regarding the future of the human race. Im listening to it on Audible.
Amazon writes:
Dr. Kai-Fu Lee - one of the world’s most respected experts on AI and China - reveals that China has suddenly caught up to the US at an astonishingly rapid and unexpected pace.
In AI Superpowers, Kai-fu Lee argues powerfully that because of these unprecedented developments in AI, dramatic changes will be happening much sooner than many of us expected. Indeed, as the US-Sino AI competition begins to heat up, Lee urges the US and China to both accept and to embrace the great responsibilities that come with significant technological power. Most experts already say that AI will have a devastating impact on blue-collar jobs. But Lee predicts that Chinese and American AI will have a strong impact on white-collar jobs as well. Is universal basic income the solution? In Lee’s opinion, probably not. But he provides a clear description of which jobs will be affected and how soon, which jobs can be enhanced with AI, and most importantly, how we can provide solutions to some of the most profound changes in human history that are coming soon.
I worry about the whole universal basic income thing. It sounds biased aganst private property rights and portends a demise of the good old boys network that so many of you want to see fall. The impact of AI on the global future will increase the gap between the haves and the have nots. As usual, the victims will be the once flourishing middle class.
To be continued...

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 132 of 174 (904937)
01-12-2023 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by ringo
01-10-2023 11:17 AM


Re: FANTASYLAND by Kurt Anderson
ringo writes:
YOU claim to "have" Jesus and what good has it done you? You're wrong about almost everything.
No. *You* claim that I am wrong about almost everything. Wait until the jury comes back with their verdict. You and the peanut gallery may be left holding the bag.
Of course I dont expect to be right about everything, but I can almost guarantee that you guys will be wrong about a few things that you are certain you will be (and currently think you are) right about. Time will tell.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 01-10-2023 11:17 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 01-12-2023 11:28 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 133 of 174 (904941)
01-12-2023 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
01-11-2023 2:27 PM


Re: FANTASYLAND by Kurt Anderson
Phat writes:
And you wouldn't recognize reality if it sat down beside you in church.
At least she knows enough to go to church.
Who the f**k is "she"? I was talking to YOU, you moron. Are you trying to undercut Dredge's 9 IQ?
I SAID that you wouldn't recognize reality if it sat down beside you in church. You don't have to demonstrate that I'm right. You've done that often enough before.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 01-11-2023 2:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 134 of 174 (904942)
01-12-2023 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
01-12-2023 10:46 AM


Re: FANTASYLAND by Kurt Anderson
Phat writes:
No. *You* claim that I am wrong about almost everything.
I demonstrate what I claim. YOU don't even try to refute my claims. You just deny, deny, deny like a devoted Trumpite.
Phat writes:
Wait until the jury comes back with their verdict.
The jury is in.
The jury is in.
The jury is in.
Are you blind? How can you not see them?
Are you deaf? How can you not hear the verdict?
Phat writes:
You and the peanut gallery may be left holding the bag.
Which (AGAIN), you can not demonstrate.
Phat writes:
Of course I dont expect to be right about everything...
Just try not to be so asininely wrong ALL the time.
Phat writes:
... I can almost guarantee that you guys will be wrong about a few things...
Your guarantee is as worthless as the guarantee on the Hindenberg.
Phat writes:
... that you are certain you will be (and currently think you are) right about.
Thinking people are careful about certainty. YOU are not. YOU are certain of things that have been proven wrong over and over and over again.
Phat writes:
Time will tell.
FYI, time is an ongoing thing. It has BEEN telling forever. YOU just aren't listiening.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 01-12-2023 10:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 01-15-2023 10:24 AM ringo has replied
 Message 141 by Phat, posted 01-16-2023 12:28 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17111
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 135 of 174 (905020)
01-14-2023 4:06 PM


The Case For Faith (reexamined)
I've had this book a while now, and listen to it over and over in the audio cassette player in the car. Theodoric, wag that he is, will likely go to internet infidels to copypaste someone else's counterclaims to the book's efficacy and apologetic value in general, though I find the book encouraging.
Favorable Reviews:
Goodreads
Critical Reviews: (This is one of the best critical reviews...I respect this author.
The Case Against Faith: A Critical Look at Lee Strobel's The Case for Faith
I have yet to find the critic's name, though his website is amazing!
Sitemap

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Theodoric, posted 01-14-2023 5:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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