Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 69 (9102 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: sensei
Upcoming Birthdays: Tusko
Post Volume: Total: 904,257 Year: 1,138/14,231 Month: 62/1,076 Week: 171/234 Day: 23/39 Hour: 4/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is ID falsifiable by any kind of experiment?
nwr
Member
Posts: 6231
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 151 of 246 (904360)
12-27-2022 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Theodoric
12-27-2022 10:43 AM


Re: Merry Trollmas
Present the damn model or shut the fuck up.
My prediction -- he will do neither.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Theodoric, posted 12-27-2022 10:43 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-30-2022 6:21 AM nwr has replied

  
MrIntelligentDesign
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: 09-21-2015


Message 152 of 246 (904403)
12-29-2022 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by ringo
12-27-2022 11:25 AM


Re: ID About to Fail?
As I had told here many times that anybody and everybody can invent definitions, but are those invented definitions correct and part of reality?
Words always convey meaning, but if distorted, will also convey distorted meaning. That is very basic and obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 12-27-2022 11:25 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Taq, posted 12-29-2022 10:38 AM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 12-30-2022 11:00 AM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

  
MrIntelligentDesign
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: 09-21-2015


Message 153 of 246 (904404)
12-29-2022 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Taq
12-27-2022 10:41 AM


Re: Merry Trollmas
I read the link twice, but that is not how a theory predicts and explains.
Evolution is change, so, is the change guided or not?
What you will be expecting if the change is not guided?
Do you really believe and accept that if the change is not guided, chimps will become humans?
But before you could answer yes or no, then what will be the criteria and dividing line between guided change and unguided change that we will be using and we will agreeing, as universal criteria, and set the universal numerical limit as criteria, with experiment? You see, anybody could claim anything, but science is science, and we need to follow the Scientific Method.
For example, how do you know if a temperature is 100 C? We measure that by using a universal criteria, like thermometer, and we all agree upon that criteria, thus, nobody complain. You see, science is very simple, very fair, and very correct. The best system of knowing what is correct or not is science. That is why I love science.
That is where the new ID stands.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Taq, posted 12-27-2022 10:41 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2022 4:32 AM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied
 Message 157 by Taq, posted 12-29-2022 10:43 AM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(7)
Message 154 of 246 (904405)
12-29-2022 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-29-2022 3:05 AM


Re: Merry Trollmas
MrI writes:
Evolution is change, so, is the change guided or not?
Not
What you will be expecting if the change is not guided?
What we see now
Do you really believe and accept that if the change is not guided, chimps will become humans?
No. Chimps will not become humans.
But before you could answer yes or no, then what will be the criteria and dividing line between guided change and unguided change that we will be using and we will agreeing, as universal criteria, and set the universal numerical limit as criteria, with experiment?
There is no guided change. If you disagree evidence it.
You see, anybody could claim anything, but science is science, and we need to follow the Scientific Method.
I completely agree, so I recommend you understand the science of evolution before you begin to criticise it. (Humans did not evolve from chimps).
That is why I love science.
You don't love science, you love yourself. You don't know what science is; you're a science stalker, completely deluded with an intent to do harm. Probably in the end, to yourself.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-29-2022 3:05 AM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17036
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 155 of 246 (904413)
12-29-2022 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-25-2022 10:30 PM


Re: Merry Trollmas
Mr.ID writes:
I am asking all of you is to kick Evolution out in science, society and in all schools, right now, and replace Evolution with Biological Interrelation, BiTs, since BiTs is the only correct theory for biology. If you will dis-agree, you must answer all questions and all challenges that the new model will throw at you. DO IT and win. Don't do it, and Evolution (will) lose.
Wait a minute! Since when does "science" kick a theory out? And since when does a theory suddenly become "the only correct theory"? You got a lot of 'splainin to do, Lucy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-25-2022 10:30 PM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 156 of 246 (904421)
12-29-2022 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-29-2022 2:50 AM


Re: ID About to Fail?
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
As I had told here many times that anybody and everybody can invent definitions, but are those invented definitions correct and part of reality?
You are inventing words that have no definition, such as frequency allele and interrelated.
What is a frequency allele? Can you describe it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-29-2022 2:50 AM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 157 of 246 (904422)
12-29-2022 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-29-2022 3:05 AM


Re: Merry Trollmas
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
Evolution is change, so, is the change guided or not?
No, it is not guided. This is discussed in my thread:
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=20367
It is also discussed in two important papers from the 1940's and 50's that were the first to describe how evolutionary change is not guided:
The Luria and Delbruck paper on the fluctuation assay:
MUTATIONS OF BACTERIA FROM VIRUS SENSITIVITY TO VIRUS RESISTANCE | Genetics | Oxford Academic
The Lederberg's paper on the plate replica assay:
REPLICA PLATING AND INDIRECT SELECTION OF BACTERIAL MUTANTS - PMC
All of these experiments demonstrate that mutations aren't guided and they do so through scientific criteria and methods.
What you will be expecting if the change is not guided?
Exactly what we see in those three experiments above. For example, in the plate replica experiment we see that mutations that confer antibiotic resistance are not triggered by the presence of antibiotics. Instead, there are random mutations changing DNA without guidance, and some of those mutations just happen to produce antibiotic resistance.
Do you really believe and accept that if the change is not guided, chimps will become humans?
No one believes that. In fact, if chimps evolved into humans that would be evidence for guidance. Are you sure you know what the theory of evolution says?
But before you could answer yes or no, then what will be the criteria and dividing line between guided change and unguided change that we will be using and we will agreeing, as universal criteria, and set the universal numerical limit as criteria, with experiment?
Three experiments above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-29-2022 3:05 AM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-29-2022 8:54 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9296
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 158 of 246 (904427)
12-29-2022 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by WookieeB
10-12-2022 12:26 AM


WookieeB writes:
But then you say it is "not directed by the experimenter". That seems contradictory to your premise. At the very least, whatever results come about, they are constrained by the experiment, which itself is designed. So in a macro sense, by design, yes the results are being directed.
How did the Lederberg's direct which mutations will occur in their experiment?
REPLICA PLATING AND INDIRECT SELECTION OF BACTERIAL MUTANTS - PMC
As to (1), actions of an intelligent agent would fall under "known mechanisms". And of course ID infers that life is a result of the activity of a mind.
How is this inference falsifiable?
But, if an experiment was designed with nothing at the beginning that was in a state of something akin to "the complexity of life", but then through undirected processes within that experiment results occur that are something akin to "the complexity of life", then yes, I would rule out a designer for those results.
So even if we witnessed all modern biodiversity evolving through natural processes from the very first life or a universal common ancestor, that wouldn't falsify ID because the first life had complexity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by WookieeB, posted 10-12-2022 12:26 AM WookieeB has not replied

  
MrIntelligentDesign
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: 09-21-2015


Message 159 of 246 (904430)
12-29-2022 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Taq
12-29-2022 10:43 AM


Re: Merry Trollmas
No, it is not guided. This is discussed in my thread:
Once again, I will repeat, your post was both a claim and a conclusion, but, how do you know that X is not guided or X is guided?
You really do not understand how science works! YOU CANNOT CONCLUDE a one-sided view of reality! You must know both guided and non-guided, and set the numerical limits between the two and conclude! That is why we can distinguish black color to white color because we have limit or dividing line between the two.
Thus, what is your dividing line between guided X to non-guided X? Present your evidence here and let us see if we could see it in reality!
That is why, no matter how hard you explain to me Evolution, if Evolution cannot answer and invent or discover the criteria between guided X and unguided X in biological world, then Evolution is still a stupid theory! WHY? Since Evolution has no basis at all in science!
Please, use you intellectual mind, you too studied in schools, right? Then, use your mind.
Once again,
how do you know that X is not guided or X is guided?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Taq, posted 12-29-2022 10:43 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by AZPaul3, posted 12-29-2022 9:14 PM MrIntelligentDesign has replied
 Message 176 by Taq, posted 12-30-2022 10:42 AM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7476
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 160 of 246 (904431)
12-29-2022 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by MrIntelligentDesign
12-29-2022 8:54 PM


Re: Merry Trollmas
how do you know that X is not guided or X is guided?
I don't know. How do you know whether X is guided or not guided?
How do you tell?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-29-2022 8:54 PM MrIntelligentDesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-30-2022 3:26 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3759
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 161 of 246 (904432)
12-29-2022 9:15 PM


He's never going to get it
It's like trying to discuss something in English with someone who doesn't understand any actual English words.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-30-2022 3:27 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
MrIntelligentDesign
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: 09-21-2015


Message 162 of 246 (904437)
12-30-2022 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by AZPaul3
12-29-2022 9:14 PM


Re: Merry Trollmas
Know it first before telling the public.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by AZPaul3, posted 12-29-2022 9:14 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Taq, posted 12-30-2022 10:45 AM MrIntelligentDesign has not replied

  
MrIntelligentDesign
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: 09-21-2015


Message 163 of 246 (904438)
12-30-2022 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Tanypteryx
12-29-2022 9:15 PM


Re: He's never going to get it
Science is to know and to get knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-29-2022 9:15 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1382
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 164 of 246 (904439)
12-30-2022 4:10 AM


In case anyone has an hour and 10 to kill, this is Mr ID debating with Aron Ra a few years ago:

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by dwise1, posted 12-30-2022 5:03 AM vimesey has not replied
 Message 167 by MrIntelligentDesign, posted 12-30-2022 6:23 AM vimesey has replied
 Message 168 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2022 6:56 AM vimesey has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5558
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 165 of 246 (904440)
12-30-2022 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by vimesey
12-30-2022 4:10 AM


MrID knows absolutely nothing crap at all about evolution.
. . .
Oh, yeah!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by vimesey, posted 12-30-2022 4:10 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2022 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2023