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Author Topic:   The Problem of Suffering
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 107 (898248)
09-21-2022 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Taq
09-20-2022 5:36 PM


The Problem Of Evil
Looking at this topic from a more compassionate view, I can well see the argument against God. Tangle wants answers. We all do.
Perhaps the question, if one presupposes that GOD exists is what precisely is His job?

Edited by Phat, : added


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Taq, posted 09-20-2022 5:36 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2022 1:21 PM Phat has replied
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 09-21-2022 3:29 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 23 by Taq, posted 09-21-2022 6:44 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 24 by dwise1, posted 09-21-2022 8:17 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8676
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 17 of 107 (898252)
09-21-2022 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
09-21-2022 1:11 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:
Perhaps the question, if one presupposes that GOD exists is what precisely is His job?
Oh Phat, that is NOT the question.
The question is how you can believe in a benevolent loving god in the face of such evidence?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 09-21-2022 1:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by AZPaul3, posted 09-21-2022 1:38 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 09-21-2022 4:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(4)
Message 18 of 107 (898254)
09-21-2022 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tangle
09-21-2022 1:21 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
The question is how you can believe in a benevolent loving god in the face of such evidence?
That's easy Tangle. A quote I once read answers this.
"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2022 1:21 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 09-21-2022 8:19 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 19 of 107 (898259)
09-21-2022 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
09-21-2022 1:11 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:
... if one presupposes that GOD exists is what precisely is His job?
From each according to His ability, to each according to His need.
He ought to do whatever He can to help us. And He ought to get whatever He needs from us. So what can we do to Help Him?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 09-21-2022 1:11 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 107 (898266)
09-21-2022 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tangle
09-21-2022 1:21 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
God has never been benevolent, though. This whole omnibenevolent thing is a myth.
Facts show that God has been portrayed as omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.
The proper question at this point is, as you say, how anyone can believe such "bronze-age twaddle. I believe it because I need it. I need Him. Humans are far too shaky on their own. The universe has worse "odds" for survival than any lottery.
Just one example: The chance that a solar storm will soon wipe our precious technology back 200 years for as long as 2 years. What are the "odds" that humanity would man up and survive through such a setback?
I would certainly be a spineless wimp. You wont catch this old man chopping firewood for the building.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2022 1:21 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2022 4:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 09-21-2022 4:51 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8676
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 21 of 107 (898268)
09-21-2022 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
09-21-2022 4:22 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:
God has never been benevolent, though. This whole omnibenevolent thing is a myth.
So "Jesus loves you" is a myth?
I believe it because I need it. I need Him.
Well finally. Nothing to do with anything you've been spouting for years, you just need to believe something supernatural because you can't deal with life.
Humans are far too shaky on their own. The universe has worse "odds" for survival than any lottery.

Just one example: The chance that a solar storm will soon wipe our precious technology back 200 years for as long as 2 years. What are the "odds" that humanity would man up and survive through such a setback?

I would certainly be a spineless wimp. You wont catch this old man chopping firewood for the building.
This is just 'spineless whimpering'. Get a grip, quit deflecting, hoping for Armageddon to take away your insecurities and for god's sake, get a hobby. I recommend fishing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 09-21-2022 4:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Greatest I am, posted 09-22-2022 12:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 22 of 107 (898270)
09-21-2022 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
09-21-2022 4:22 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:
God has never been benevolent, though.
You're the one who keeps saying that He is "good". You say that Jesus (whom you say is God) is the personification of good.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 09-21-2022 4:22 PM Phat has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8612
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 23 of 107 (898280)
09-21-2022 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
09-21-2022 1:11 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:
Perhaps the question, if one presupposes that GOD exists is what precisely is His job?
Make people doubt his existence and question his morality?
Oh, and before I forget, no thread on the problem of suffering is complete without Epicurus' Trilemma:
"If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful.
If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good.
If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?"
--Epicurus

Edited by Taq, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 09-21-2022 1:11 PM Phat has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5287
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 24 of 107 (898282)
09-21-2022 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
09-21-2022 1:11 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Perhaps the question, if one presupposes that GOD exists is what precisely is His job?
Which is I guess in part where I was trying to steer with my Message 14, but the Agave wants what the Agave wants (Similarly, I was just now working through how to explain atomic theory and the gods (including the names of the days of the week in different languages) to my grandsons (now 3 and 2) when they get old enough for the seminar of The Talk (with which sex has absolutely nothing to do; I'm talking the hard-core stuff here!)).
 
I still have pinned to my fridge a Xerox of an AP article from my UUA church about a book from 1995, Stupid Ways, Smart Ways to Think about God, co-written by a rabbi (you wanna talk smart about God, talk with a rabbi -- on YouTube is an ex-YEC who converted to Judaism and she loves going down those "rabbi-holes" (as opposed to just passively accepting the YEC dogma without question -- "You are supposed to struggle with what Scripture says!")). My favorite line from a German movie, Mein Bester Feind ("My Best Enemy", 2011 -- no longer on Netflix, but German Wikipedia, Mein Bester Feind, gives a much more complete description).
The quote in question was about a hyper-valuable unknown fictious Michelangelo sketch of Moses (which becomes a pivotable plot device) which depicts Moses with horns (which I understand to have been common that time). The Jewish art dealer's son's explanation was that the horns were due to a mistranslation: "Christians have no idea how to read the Bible." I think I've heard a second on that from Lewis Black: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC-nz71kmWE -- follow that link.
 
OK, trust. In God. To do just exactly what?
There was a play that appeared on PBS in the past half-century -- Sorry, Capt'n. I canna get a fix on it!. A gambler prays oh so fervently "Oh God, Oh God! Give me an Eight!" and God in a steambath (I've only seen that Bill Bixby play once on PBS so it's anybody's guess) says, "Give him a seven!"
Just what is "God" good for? Useful for? Dependable for?
I would propose that most supplicants have outrageously unrealistic expectations of "God".
 
Starting in the 1980's, I guess (I stopped reading comic books in the mid-1960's when a Gold Key version of John Carter of Mars turned me onto the paperback novels) the genre had started to deconstruct the superhero, especially around 1980 as I gather from my readings. A necessary step though it can become unpalatable -- eg, a restaurant we frequent monthly has deconstructed the huevos rancheros into a manner I cannot tolerate.
So then. How do we deconstruct the gods so that we can understand them better?
 

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 09-21-2022 1:11 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 12:51 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 107 (898283)
09-21-2022 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by AZPaul3
09-21-2022 1:38 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Minchin and Mr.Deity. Two mouses two houses.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by AZPaul3, posted 09-21-2022 1:38 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 26 of 107 (898301)
09-22-2022 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by dwise1
09-21-2022 8:17 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
How do we deconstruct the gods so that we can understand them better?
Do we have to? Can’t we just say the gods don’t exist and go live our lives free of the ghosts? Deconstruct gods, or rather the god concepts, to find nothing there. A rather useless exercise given the present state of our knowledge. It's like a racoon trying to wash a tuft of cotton candy.
I say we pitch the whole lot of them. Let the concepts deconstruct themselves naturally and disappear from this universe, again.
Which sorta answers the question. Pain and suffering are not due to any neglect by some gods but are a natural feature of all living things everywhere. Ours is not to entreat god’s lie. Ours is but to naturally suffer and die.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by dwise1, posted 09-21-2022 8:17 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by dwise1, posted 09-22-2022 11:52 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5287
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 27 of 107 (898317)
09-22-2022 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by AZPaul3
09-22-2022 12:51 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Yeah, but ...
Of course we created the gods. Of course we cannot take them serious as if they were real, which they're not.
But then we also engage in a lot of study and discussion of works of fiction. Many people earn degrees (including PhDs) in fiction -- basically, my first degree, a BA German, was an English or English Literature degree, just in a different language and with a completely different reading list.
Remember the story of Haldane being asked what studying God's Creation had taught him about that Creator ("An inordinate fondness for beetles.")? Studying the gods that we have created is useful for learning about those gods' creators: us!
Rather, the gods that we created

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 12:51 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 12:10 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 28 of 107 (898321)
09-22-2022 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by dwise1
09-22-2022 11:52 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Studying the gods that we have created is useful for learning about those gods' creators: us!
We can study us without invoking any gods. There are plenty of other fantasies to select for tests. Ignore the gods.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by dwise1, posted 09-22-2022 11:52 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1615
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 29 of 107 (898326)
09-22-2022 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tangle
09-21-2022 4:33 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
The problem of evil is just not us recognizing the beauty of our dualistic reality and that there is a lot more good than evil in the world.
Take death.
If it did not happen, reproduction would have to eventually stop, as the world would become overpopulated.
You do not like sin and evil, but you, like Christians, might wonder why Christians sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.
Nature loves how things works, not that she can think, and I would not change a thing.
You should try to see the evolving perfection in our world.
It is the only possible world, given entropy, and is the best world we can possibly have.
We can envision better but it could not be given our history.
That is why Gnostic Christians can see heaven right here and now.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2022 4:33 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2022 12:55 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 31 by Taq, posted 09-22-2022 1:05 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8676
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 30 of 107 (898328)
09-22-2022 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Greatest I am
09-22-2022 12:48 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GIA writes:
If it did not happen, reproduction would have to eventually stop, as the world would become overpopulated.
Will heaven eventually fill up and new entrants eventually have to go "elsewhere"?
It is the only possible world, given entropy, and is the best world we can possibly have.
Why do we need entropy? Do you really think it impossible to design a humane world, a place where organisms don't have to kill each other just to stay alive?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Greatest I am, posted 09-22-2022 12:48 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Greatest I am, posted 09-22-2022 8:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
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