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Author Topic:   The Problem of Suffering
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 1 of 107 (898110)
09-18-2022 12:08 PM


Last week the two month old baby of friends of ours died.
He had a heart attack in his fathers arms. There was no lead up to this, no warning, he was a healthy baby, it just happened. The father did CPR and the ambulance people managed to keep him alive long enough to get to hospital. But the baby died several hours later.
A horrible tragedy, but the point of this post is that the father is a fairly lackadaisical Christian but his mother is a full on, happy-clappy, born again fundamental Baptist. She spent all day in the hospital chapel praying for her god to save her child. But he didn't, he let him die.
The loss of a child is a devastating experience and the father is suffering gravely, but the mother has now also lost her god and we're all very worried for her.
It strikes me that if there's one purpose for believing in a god it's to get some comfort from the belief of an afterlife and a purpose but in this case she seems to have lost everything.
Atheists of course know that the vale of tears is all there is and life is both wonderful and ugly for no reason but how believers rationalise god killing his innocent children and ignoring his believer's agony is beyond me. I guess they must try not to think about it too much.
No condolences please, just answers.

Edited by Tangle, .


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by AZPaul3, posted 09-19-2022 10:05 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 13 by Stile, posted 09-19-2022 4:15 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 4 of 107 (898116)
09-19-2022 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by AZPaul3
09-19-2022 10:05 AM


Re: Biology Fails
I'm asking believers how they can believe that their god is benevolent when this kind of thing and worse happens routinely.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AZPaul3, posted 09-19-2022 10:05 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 09-19-2022 10:34 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 09-19-2022 11:18 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 8 of 107 (898125)
09-19-2022 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
09-19-2022 11:18 AM


Re: Biology Fails
Phat writes:
All that I can add is that if God exists, He is under no obligation to magically cure all of our sicknesses. Whatever will be will be.
He does if you want to believe that he's a benevolent god. Otherwise he's just indifferent to our suffering which our morality would simply call murder.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 09-19-2022 11:18 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 09-19-2022 1:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 12 of 107 (898133)
09-19-2022 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
09-19-2022 1:11 PM


Re: Biology Fails
Phat writes:
That's too simplistic
Simple is good. It means that we both might be able to understand the point being made.
and is assuming that humans understand a given grand purpose, as well as God, might.
We don't have to assume a grand purpose we apply the rules he gave us to love and to not murder, neither of which characteristics your god seems obliged to follow himself.
Evidentially, he is indifferent to our suffering.
To conclude that He is indifferent presupposes that He is obligated to prevent or cure your suffering.
He is if you wish to proclaim him as a beneficent and loving god. If you are prepared to abandon that claim, we have a different argument. Are you?
I suppose that you could dismiss Him and shop elsewhere.
Well obviously I have - it's patent nonsense. No loving god would behave like this.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 09-19-2022 1:11 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 17 of 107 (898252)
09-21-2022 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
09-21-2022 1:11 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:
Perhaps the question, if one presupposes that GOD exists is what precisely is His job?
Oh Phat, that is NOT the question.
The question is how you can believe in a benevolent loving god in the face of such evidence?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 09-21-2022 1:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by AZPaul3, posted 09-21-2022 1:38 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 09-21-2022 4:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 21 of 107 (898268)
09-21-2022 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
09-21-2022 4:22 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:
God has never been benevolent, though. This whole omnibenevolent thing is a myth.
So "Jesus loves you" is a myth?
I believe it because I need it. I need Him.
Well finally. Nothing to do with anything you've been spouting for years, you just need to believe something supernatural because you can't deal with life.
Humans are far too shaky on their own. The universe has worse "odds" for survival than any lottery.

Just one example: The chance that a solar storm will soon wipe our precious technology back 200 years for as long as 2 years. What are the "odds" that humanity would man up and survive through such a setback?

I would certainly be a spineless wimp. You wont catch this old man chopping firewood for the building.
This is just 'spineless whimpering'. Get a grip, quit deflecting, hoping for Armageddon to take away your insecurities and for god's sake, get a hobby. I recommend fishing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 09-21-2022 4:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Greatest I am, posted 09-22-2022 12:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


(3)
Message 30 of 107 (898328)
09-22-2022 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Greatest I am
09-22-2022 12:48 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GIA writes:
If it did not happen, reproduction would have to eventually stop, as the world would become overpopulated.
Will heaven eventually fill up and new entrants eventually have to go "elsewhere"?
It is the only possible world, given entropy, and is the best world we can possibly have.
Why do we need entropy? Do you really think it impossible to design a humane world, a place where organisms don't have to kill each other just to stay alive?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Greatest I am, posted 09-22-2022 12:48 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Greatest I am, posted 09-22-2022 8:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


(3)
Message 33 of 107 (898347)
09-22-2022 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by AZPaul3
09-22-2022 3:29 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
I reckon he's just an autistic hobbyist, instead of building a massive train set out of matchsticks he decided to make loads of stars and just couldn't stop.
We're an accident that he hasn't noticed yet. If he ever does, it's game over, we've made a mess in the corner of the Sol system, he's not going to like it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2022 3:29 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 38 of 107 (898380)
09-23-2022 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Greatest I am
09-22-2022 8:41 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GIA writes:
The earth though is heaven to me, given that it is the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world.

If you have any suggestions to do better for life than the evolutionary system we live in, please offer it.
You have a weird idea of perfect. Half the world is starving, the other half is trying to kill each other..
Why does this god of yours require this bizarre experiment of earth at all?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Greatest I am, posted 09-22-2022 8:41 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 9:43 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 40 of 107 (898385)
09-23-2022 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Greatest I am
09-23-2022 9:43 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GIA writes:
My God is not causing all this.

Other Gods are.
Which other gods?
My God is fighting it.
He's a pretty crap god then - he's losing.
Few see the evolving perfection of reality.
Well that at least is correct - like I say, you have a weird idea of perfection.

Edited by Tangle, .


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 9:43 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 10:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 42 of 107 (898388)
09-23-2022 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Greatest I am
09-23-2022 10:50 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Thanks, perhaps you could answer my questions next?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 10:50 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 11:08 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 44 of 107 (898392)
09-23-2022 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Greatest I am
09-23-2022 11:08 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GIA writes:
You seem unable to connect the dots.

Who is God according to what I put already?

If your reading comprehension is low, there is not much more I can say.
My reading comprehension is fine, but given that I have no idea what you're trying to say with your gothic puzzle language, why not just tell me who these other gods are?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 11:08 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-23-2022 11:41 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 49 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 12:58 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 51 of 107 (898409)
09-23-2022 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Greatest I am
09-23-2022 12:58 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GIA writes:
Jesus asked in the bible, have ye forgotten that ye are Gods?

He was talking about people and how the holy books showed them to be Gods.
Sorry, I forgot for a moment (or a lifetime) what your variety of loony tunes Christianity was all about.
Strange though that people can't do anything that gods are supposed to be able to do.
Even stranger that people have only been around for <200,000 years and yet the evolutionary mayhem that causes the death and destruction has been around for several billion years. How does that work out?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 12:58 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 1:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9525
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 57 of 107 (898415)
09-23-2022 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Greatest I am
09-23-2022 1:24 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:
If you believe in a supernatural God, I cannot help you. I do not.
I do not
If you think man is the epitome of natural creation, then we are on the same page.
I do not.
Given that you don't believe is God, what's all this Christianity bullshit about?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 1:24 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Greatest I am, posted 09-23-2022 3:00 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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